All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > Looking for a low D1 recruiting/coaching guide
1/4/2013 5:51 PM
Hey Coaches,

I was wondering if there was a recruiting/coaching guide for low prestige D1 teams.  I read a few posts on the subject, but may have missed others floating around.  I made some cuts to the roster, and tried to fill with high potential FR.  Recruits with a star or had a overall rank would hang up.  Any advice, guides, or post are welcomed.
1/7/2013 6:46 AM
Would love some information on this myself. 
1/7/2013 3:38 PM
Posted this elsewhere, applies here as well:

1) You should rarely (if ever) fill all your scholarships.  Go big or go home, that's the only way you're going to improve.  Don't just take a guy because you don't want to come away with nothing.  Most of the time, nothing is better than a crappy big man because that big man is on campus the next four years and a walk-on is only there for 1.

2) You shouldn't ever come away with a well rounded recruit because that probably means he's not good enough anywhere to be effective.  Find guys with extreme strengths and try to set off their weaknesses.  

3) Find the low-rated guys with high-high potentials because taking a big man with 20 LP but  high-high is a lot better than taking a big man with 45 LP and low-high potential because only one of them has a chance at being an elite scorer.  Low D1 in all about high-high potential because that is where your studs come from.  

4) GO INTERNATIONAL!!!!!!  These guys are the high-risk high-reward players and that's exactly what you need.  The bigger schools don't want to deal with most unranked and seemingly untalented international guys because it's a risk they can't really afford to take.  They can find these same types of lowly ranked guys locally, except they know the local guys have great potential and so they take them.  As a lowly ranked D1 school, it's very hard to get a local guy with a bunch of high potentials, but it is SO MUCH EASIER if you go overseas.  Yea, most international guys you scout are going to be ****, but once in a while you find a guy that has high-high potential EVERYWHERE.  Normally, this guy would go to a big 6 school, but since they have no idea of his potentials, you can scoop up this international gem and dominate your conference.
1/7/2013 10:24 PM
Thanks tkimble. In regards to internationals, should you scout 5-10 guys right away with decent baselines or scout a huge group and look for high potentials?
1/7/2013 10:50 PM
Posted by tkimble on 1/7/2013 3:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted this elsewhere, applies here as well:

1) You should rarely (if ever) fill all your scholarships.  Go big or go home, that's the only way you're going to improve.  Don't just take a guy because you don't want to come away with nothing.  Most of the time, nothing is better than a crappy big man because that big man is on campus the next four years and a walk-on is only there for 1.

2) You shouldn't ever come away with a well rounded recruit because that probably means he's not good enough anywhere to be effective.  Find guys with extreme strengths and try to set off their weaknesses.  

3) Find the low-rated guys with high-high potentials because taking a big man with 20 LP but  high-high is a lot better than taking a big man with 45 LP and low-high potential because only one of them has a chance at being an elite scorer.  Low D1 in all about high-high potential because that is where your studs come from.  

4) GO INTERNATIONAL!!!!!!  These guys are the high-risk high-reward players and that's exactly what you need.  The bigger schools don't want to deal with most unranked and seemingly untalented international guys because it's a risk they can't really afford to take.  They can find these same types of lowly ranked guys locally, except they know the local guys have great potential and so they take them.  As a lowly ranked D1 school, it's very hard to get a local guy with a bunch of high potentials, but it is SO MUCH EASIER if you go overseas.  Yea, most international guys you scout are going to be ****, but once in a while you find a guy that has high-high potential EVERYWHERE.  Normally, this guy would go to a big 6 school, but since they have no idea of his potentials, you can scoop up this international gem and dominate your conference.
I strongly disagree wtih #1 here.  While it is certainly true that 1 stud and 1 walkon is better than 2 good players who will never be elite, if you work hard enough at scouting and roster planning/construction you can fill every scholarship every season and be good at D1, especially if you subscribe to #3 on this list and stick to it.  I think the real point here is that if you have a legitimate shot at signing at elite player, you need to make every effort to do so, but you also need to know when you have no chance to win a battle and move on, even it it is a truly elite player.  Prestige matters a lot at D1, so you probably won't sign any 5-star guys unless your prestige is at least A-.
1/7/2013 11:17 PM
You are misunderstanding my "go big or go home" comment.  As a low D1 school, you are going to have to battle for the high potential guys.  To do so, most of the time, you'll have to use a large amount of money.  You may end up filling all your scholarships, but if you go in thinking you have to fill them all, you're going to do poorly.  
1/7/2013 11:20 PM
Posted by senetor24 on 1/7/2013 10:24:00 PM (view original):
Thanks tkimble. In regards to internationals, should you scout 5-10 guys right away with decent baselines or scout a huge group and look for high potentials?
I've had my biggest successes with big guys whose athleticism is 60+.  Definitely don't do more than 5-10 because that can get expensive.  
1/7/2013 11:23 PM
Posted by tkimble on 1/7/2013 3:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted this elsewhere, applies here as well:

1) You should rarely (if ever) fill all your scholarships.  Go big or go home, that's the only way you're going to improve.  Don't just take a guy because you don't want to come away with nothing.  Most of the time, nothing is better than a crappy big man because that big man is on campus the next four years and a walk-on is only there for 1.

2) You shouldn't ever come away with a well rounded recruit because that probably means he's not good enough anywhere to be effective.  Find guys with extreme strengths and try to set off their weaknesses.  

3) Find the low-rated guys with high-high potentials because taking a big man with 20 LP but  high-high is a lot better than taking a big man with 45 LP and low-high potential because only one of them has a chance at being an elite scorer.  Low D1 in all about high-high potential because that is where your studs come from.  

4) GO INTERNATIONAL!!!!!!  These guys are the high-risk high-reward players and that's exactly what you need.  The bigger schools don't want to deal with most unranked and seemingly untalented international guys because it's a risk they can't really afford to take.  They can find these same types of lowly ranked guys locally, except they know the local guys have great potential and so they take them.  As a lowly ranked D1 school, it's very hard to get a local guy with a bunch of high potentials, but it is SO MUCH EASIER if you go overseas.  Yea, most international guys you scout are going to be ****, but once in a while you find a guy that has high-high potential EVERYWHERE.  Normally, this guy would go to a big 6 school, but since they have no idea of his potentials, you can scoop up this international gem and dominate your conference.
good advice
1/7/2013 11:26 PM
Posted by tkimble on 1/7/2013 11:17:00 PM (view original):
You are misunderstanding my "go big or go home" comment.  As a low D1 school, you are going to have to battle for the high potential guys.  To do so, most of the time, you'll have to use a large amount of money.  You may end up filling all your scholarships, but if you go in thinking you have to fill them all, you're going to do poorly.  
Ah, ok.  I see what you are saying now.  My bad.  I agree with what you are saying then.  My first D1 job had C prestige and I had to sign 6.  All 6 were high potential guys and 4 of them wound up being very, very good players (one got drafted).  You can fill all of your schollies if you try hard enough and are lucky, but you are right in that you must sign guys who will grow into very, very good players, even if it means taking a walkon or 2.
1/8/2013 12:00 AM
Posted by gillispie2 on 1/7/2013 11:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tkimble on 1/7/2013 3:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted this elsewhere, applies here as well:

1) You should rarely (if ever) fill all your scholarships.  Go big or go home, that's the only way you're going to improve.  Don't just take a guy because you don't want to come away with nothing.  Most of the time, nothing is better than a crappy big man because that big man is on campus the next four years and a walk-on is only there for 1.

2) You shouldn't ever come away with a well rounded recruit because that probably means he's not good enough anywhere to be effective.  Find guys with extreme strengths and try to set off their weaknesses.  

3) Find the low-rated guys with high-high potentials because taking a big man with 20 LP but  high-high is a lot better than taking a big man with 45 LP and low-high potential because only one of them has a chance at being an elite scorer.  Low D1 in all about high-high potential because that is where your studs come from.  

4) GO INTERNATIONAL!!!!!!  These guys are the high-risk high-reward players and that's exactly what you need.  The bigger schools don't want to deal with most unranked and seemingly untalented international guys because it's a risk they can't really afford to take.  They can find these same types of lowly ranked guys locally, except they know the local guys have great potential and so they take them.  As a lowly ranked D1 school, it's very hard to get a local guy with a bunch of high potentials, but it is SO MUCH EASIER if you go overseas.  Yea, most international guys you scout are going to be ****, but once in a while you find a guy that has high-high potential EVERYWHERE.  Normally, this guy would go to a big 6 school, but since they have no idea of his potentials, you can scoop up this international gem and dominate your conference.
good advice
This is the third time I've posted this and the third time you've endorsed it and it's very nice to hear!
1/8/2013 12:02 AM
hmmm, dubious. i dont remember reading it before... oh well. i guess its still good, no matter how many times you post it :)
1/8/2013 9:01 AM
I agree with the "go international" advice, but it seems to be getting a lot more competitive. Last recruiting season in Allen, I counted about 40 intl recruits who had even 40+ ATH and 40+ DEF. (I used those as cut-offs because I figured if they were high in those categories, there was a good chance they would end up at respectable ratings. I also looked at a few guys with lower starting values to see if any of them might be high-high, but that was a pretty small group.) This upcoming recruiting season, looks like there are 47 intls who meet that criteria, so pretty consistent.

Anyway, iirc, 37 of the 40 were either battled over by mult schools, or were taken by a Big 6 school. In other words, if you were a D prestige mid-major like I was, it was going to be a real challenge to nab one of them. Yeah, these guys may still be less competitive than a local guy with great potential, but obviously they cost more too. I still look every season, but it seems everybody else does too - including the high-prestige schools.
1/8/2013 10:29 AM
Then would it be fair to say zone is one of the better defenses for low d1 - you can try to go big, take on Walkons - and still fill all of your minutes on a short rotation?
1/8/2013 11:05 AM
I think it is helpful to be "gimmicky" at low end DI.  Espicially if you aren't a top notch recruiter.

Some of the guys in this thread are REALLY good at this game and can recruit their balls off.    Must of us can't.

If you're goal is to just survive low end DI on your way to a better job, I would go the nontradional route.  Something like:

Playing Zone, Slow Down with only 7 or 8 guys
Using the "one guy shoots 50%" of the shots strategy
I was successful at Princeton going fastbreak/FCP and ONLY recruiting ATH/SPD/DEF 
Trying some sort of only shoot 3's or never shoot 3's approach

You won't be successful in the NT but you'll win some games in the regular season and make the NT most seasons.

I guess and even simpler approach would be to schedule well.....

1/8/2013 1:40 PM (edited)

All good advice. I would add that you should redshirt a frosh whenever possible. Doing that every year will help give you a nice iq advantage, particulalry over some of the BCS teams that are generally unable to do so. I also think scheduling is crucial -- understanding who your team can/can't beat, where you stand in your conference, the relative strength of your conference, etc.  

I agree with tkimble that you are better off with a walk-on than with mediocrity. I think the confusion above came in with how strongly worded his first point was ("rarely if ever fill all of your scholarships"). I don't agree with that as stated. If you are able to sign players that are up to your standards (whatever those may be), then by all means, fill the schollies. Just don't sign someone crappy to get them all filled. But I never adopted the mindset of thinking that I would just take walk-ons from the beginning of recruiting -- sometimes it just happens organically, and that simply involves making smart decisions re: who to sign.

I also think a huge skill here is figuring out which battles to engage in and which to let go. Every season I see teams with literally zero mathematical chance of winning a battle going after it anyway. It's beyond puzzling and generally ruins their recruiting. The big difference in moving to DI is that recruiting strategy becomes much more nuanced and multi-layered, and you need to quickly become adept at the kind of fuzzy math employed by the veteran coaches -- how much does my opponent have, what other battles is he in, how much do I think he can devote to a battle, how much do I need to outspend him by after factoring in prestige/distance/etc? I see a lot of newer (and plenty of veteran) DI coaches who just don't get this, and I think it's what separates the men from the boys (or the acns from the kelbys, as we say in the ACC) in DI.
 

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