All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
1/15/2013 3:40 PM
I won't deny he's had a very good offensive line most of his career here.  But I think he's also very good at sensing pressure and getting rid of the ball quickly.  I think he does an excellent job of building rapport with his receivers, getting on the same page with them as best as he can in practice.  Moss was a shell of himself until he went to New England.  Also note that Gronk has been hurt most of this year.  And if he wins a Super Bowl it will be without him.  So he has Welker (who was nobody until he came to New England) and Hernandez as elite receivers.  He's never had a running game.  Nobody's ever faced New England and said that they had to stop the running back.
1/15/2013 4:02 PM
Welker has a ton of catches at Texas Tech.   He also had a pretty good year in Miami before hs signed with NE.  I wouldn't call him a "nobody".   He just lacked the size/speed that NFL teams were looking for back then.  Now everybody has a slot guy like him. 

I think the bigger testament to Belichick is Matt Cassell.  Brady gets hurt.  NE didn't roll over and die.  Cassell signs a big deal in KC and stinks. 

Belichick was nothing in Cleveland but it's entirely possible that he learned from his mistakes and developed a system that works with a QB who doesn't suck.
1/15/2013 4:14 PM
If you started at WR for Texas Tech you had a ton of catches by default.  All they did was throw.  What he did at Miami was minuscule in comparison to what he's done for New England.  Calling him a nobody was probably too strong, but he became twice the player he was the moment he stepped on the field with Brady.

Fair point with Cassel.  If you want to argue that the"weapons" he has includes Belichick, I probably shouldn't argue.  That said, I think Brady is still an elite QB with a different coach.

Another point: What great weapons did Brady have pre-Welker? I'll wait here while you find them. (directed towards bistiza)


1/15/2013 4:28 PM
I suppose I could dig one up every year but, since you called Welker a "nobody" after a pretty good college career and 67 catches "miniscule by comparison", I doubt you're going to want to hear about Troy Browns 83 catches the season before Brady.   I also doubt you'll want to hear that Brady had 4 "average" years before he broke the 4k mark in 2005.   And that his TD/INT ratio was nothing special until 2007 when Moss arrived.  He seemed to turn a corner after that and hasn't looked back.

Now you're making argue that Brady was pedestrian before he turned 30.  I don't really believe that to be true but his numbers have certainly gotten better.

I think, in this era, he and Manning are the top 2.   Brady has had a better scheme and Manning has had more talent around him.   Either could be declared the "best" in discussion and I wouldn't take exception.
1/15/2013 4:48 PM
If you look at the weapons Brady had before Welker, there wasn't much there.  That's not arguable.  He's never had a running game.  Troy Brown was a nice player, at best, a top 15 WR.  Aside from him, there wasn't much.  I respected Brady for being able to do the things he could do (like win 3 Super Bowls) with the few weapons he had.

Yes, his numbers get better when you add talent.  Welker and Moss helped, they had a record-setting season together.  Having Gronk and Hernandez help.  But when I look at Peyton, Eli last year, Rodgers, Brees, etc, I see more talent to help the QB on those teams than I see in most seasons with Brady.
1/15/2013 5:37 PM
Posted by bistiza on 1/15/2013 2:49:00 PM (view original):
I want to see anyone but the Patriots win the Super Bowl.

Tom Brady is already the most over rated QB in the history of the NFL, most of it based upon him being on teams that practically carried him to three SB wins.

If Brady manages to win another SB on a team full of talent, he'll get all the credit and will no doubt be lauded as the "best of all time" and sealing his status as most over-rated of all time beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Sour grapes.  You'd give your left nut for Brady.  
1/15/2013 5:38 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/15/2013 3:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/15/2013 2:57:00 PM (view original):
Most overrated = Joe Namath.

I wouldn't call Brady overrated.  I actually don't think I know anyone that would.  What talent does he have around him, exactly, that other teams don't have?
I mentioned this in another thread but he's had a coach that understood how to create match-up problems.    Manning has had coaches who said "Hey, make something happen out there!"
Funny thing is....Belicheck constantly is being seeing coaching up the Defense while Brady is picking apart the opposing teams D.
1/15/2013 5:44 PM
Posted by bistiza on 1/15/2013 3:23:00 PM (view original):
I wouldn't call Brady overrated.  I actually don't think I know anyone that would.  What talent does he have around him, exactly, that other teams don't have?

Oh, please. He's always played on teams that were full of talent in ways that made them winners.

When he went down and was out in the '08 season, Matt Cassell stepped in and the team went 11-5 and barely missed the playoffs. That's a season most teams would love to have, and all but a small part of the first game was without the over-rated QB.

Brady has always been protected by a stalwart offensive line that rarely lets him get touched. Any decent NFL QB can throw and win games if he's rarely touched.

In fact, when a defense DOES manage to get hits on Brady consistently, the Patriots lose most of the time. In both Super Bowls against the Giants Brady got hit and the team suddenly didn't score like it did before and they lost.

Right now Brady has two of the best tight ends in the game to catch his passes, plus the best slot receiver in the league.

Combine that with a great offensive line, and any decent NFL QB would thrive in that offense.

Great offensive lines have made him look stellar by keeping his jersey clean. Randy Moss carried him to records. Now Gronk, Hernandez, and Welker will bail him out when the offensive line gives him all day to throw.

Because he is the QB of a team that wins, he gets all the credit, and if you put any decent NFL QB in his place they'd do the same things.

By the way, AlCheez, I really believe what I'm saying here. This isn't some troll post. I don't post opinions I don't believe in.

Bellicheat is over rated too. Funny how he couldn't "create match-up problems" and win Super Bowls with the Cleveland Browns.
BB wasn't given the time in Cleveland.  Look at there records.  They steadily got better as he was coach...then bam, they moved.

Who were these great players around Brady in 2001-2004 on offense?  He had unknowns and backups as his WRs and TE's. The year before Moss and Welker, his WR's were Reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney.  Wow...what threats.  They still made it to the AFC Championship game.

Brady has never had the best line protecting him.  Yes, they've been really good lines, but never the best in the game. 
1/15/2013 6:21 PM
The Broncos were 9.5 point favourites - and I don't see NE making some of the bonehead mistakes they made. 9.5 seems like a logical starting spread.
1/16/2013 6:35 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/15/2013 4:48:00 PM (view original):
If you look at the weapons Brady had before Welker, there wasn't much there.  That's not arguable.  He's never had a running game.  Troy Brown was a nice player, at best, a top 15 WR.  Aside from him, there wasn't much.  I respected Brady for being able to do the things he could do (like win 3 Super Bowls) with the few weapons he had.

Yes, his numbers get better when you add talent.  Welker and Moss helped, they had a record-setting season together.  Having Gronk and Hernandez help.  But when I look at Peyton, Eli last year, Rodgers, Brees, etc, I see more talent to help the QB on those teams than I see in most seasons with Brady.
In 2000, Troy Brown had 83 catches for 944 yards.  In 2001, Smith joined the team and promptly went for 1100+ yards rushing.  Smith gets old they bring in Corey Dillon in 2004 who went for 1635 yards.   
1/16/2013 9:21 AM
I don't remember anyone naming Antowain Smith when listing talented running backs.  Corey Dillon did have a great year (and a few below average ones) with the Pats.  I actually think the best running attack Brady has had is Ridley, this year.

The point still stands - Brady, over the course of his career, has had less talent on his offense than other elite QBs.  
1/16/2013 9:28 AM
That's kind of my point of my 4:28 post yesterday.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitAn00.htm

23rd pick in the draft.   A good rookie and 2nd year.   Gets dinged up.   Shows up healthy in NE and has 2 more productive years.  Gets dinged again and fades away.

Dude had talent but couldn't stay healthy.
1/16/2013 9:59 AM
Smith appeared in the vast majority of games.  I'm not sure he was "dinged up" as much as teams preferred to try and find a different running back than the guy who averages 3.9 yards a carry.  The years he got 1000+ yards, he averaged 3.7 and 4.0 yards per carry...it wasn't like he had a breakthrough or anything.
1/16/2013 10:14 AM
I'm sure he was.  I played FF back in those days and, far too often, had Smith on my team.    Dude was a game-time decision every week starting in April.
1/16/2013 10:15 AM
But, as I said, everyone sucked before they got to NE and Brady magically made them better.

To be clear, I'm not saying Welker or Brown were top 5 WR nor am I saying Smith was a top 5 RB.   I'm saying they weren't talentless hacks before NE.    
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