All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
1/23/2013 2:53 PM
Posted by bistiza on 1/23/2013 11:28:00 AM (view original):
One being wide open is a big part of what gets Brady his stats and the team its wins.

Funny how that's all coaching and other players doing what they are supposed to be doing, but Brady is the one who gets all the credit when the team wins.

So now their coaching leads to wins? You told me BB was overrated.

I showed you visual evidence of Brady fitting the ball down the field into tight spaces.  8 minutes worth.  Everyone is not always wide open.

You still haven't shown me the weapons that carried Brady to 3 Super Bowl wins.  
1/23/2013 2:55 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/22/2013 5:03:00 PM (view original):
And that's where coaching comes in.   NE's TD was a perfect example.   Stack a couple of WR, confuse the D and one is wide open.
Mike, I said this one page 1 - I think both Brady and BB do a good job of helping each other.

"I think that has something to do with it.  But the coach also had no success until Brady started playing, so maybe Brady is also helping Bill.  Brady's still one of the best QBs in the league."
1/23/2013 3:13 PM
honestly, you seem to be convinced that 'elite' doesn't exist...so going with that thinking, OK he's not elite
No, elite very much does exist. There are several QBs I would consider elite in the NFL right now, including Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, and Drew Brees among possible others.

However, the gap between those guys and Brady is HUGE. In fact, if we include Brady in that group, there are about ten other guys who are better than him that should be there too.

Brady is above average when he's at his best but doesn't make plays anywhere near the level of the guys I just mentioned.
however, whether the talent around him carried him or he is the luckiest human on the planet, his numbers at QB dwarf nearly every QB to play in his era....which locks him up a spot in Canton whether you like him or not

He's been carried into the HOF on the backs of team mates and he doesn't deserve it. That's the biggest among MANY reasons why he's the most over rated player in NFL history.
So now their coaching leads to wins? You told me BB was overrated.

The two are completely separate statements.

The first one still stands - Belicheat IS over rated. If he was as good as his hype, he'd have won SBs in Cleveland, and he didn't.

The second one was merely me responding to someone else's assertion that coaching wins them games and was in no way me making my own statement.
I showed you visual evidence of Brady fitting the ball down the field into tight spaces.  8 minutes worth.  Everyone is not always wide open.

I didn't watch it, so I have no idea what you showed. If I get a chance later I may view it, but I make no promises.
You still haven't shown me the weapons that carried Brady to 3 Super Bowl wins. 
The defense is one weapon. The offensive line is another. Receivers who play well within the system is a third. I'll stick with those three for now.
1/23/2013 4:00 PM (edited)
I'm surprised you didn't watch any of it.  You told me that Brady couldn't make tight, accurate passes, and there's several on that video.  I am confident that the video did not get every single great pass Brady made in his career, either.  Show me the inaccurate passes on that video after you watch it.

The Pats did often have great defenses.  Ironically, I think their best defense was in 2003, where Brady needed to play at his best in the Super Bowl because the defense allowed 29 points.  That said, you've mentioned a few times here that Brady, himself, was successful because his offense carried him.  So as for his o-line, it's been mentioned several times that Brady had average to poor offensive lines for his first 2 Super Bowls.  And at best (I feel like I'm stretching here) his weapons for his first 3 Super Bowls were average, and Brady put up at least above-average numbers.

Can you do me a favor?  Can you give me the names of the receivers below that are better than Deion Branch?  (EDIT: Sorry, I'll make it easier.  Worse than Deion Branch.) The guys below were weapons that other QBs had the opportunity to throw to during the period where the Pats won 3 of 4 Super Bowls.  And Deion, being one of the major receivers on Brady's teams, that you claim carried him to Super Bowls.  Thanks.

Randy Moss
Torry Holt
Anquan Boldin
Chad Johnson
Marvin Harrison
Reggie Wayne
Hines Ward
Steve Smith
Terrell Owens
Amani Toomer
Torry Holt
Issac Bruce
Andre Johnson
Tony Gonzalez
Jerry Rice
Plaxico Burress
Derrick Mason
Laveranues Coles
Eric Moulds
Peerless Price
Joe Horn
Donald Driver
Rod Smith
Santana Moss

1/23/2013 5:14 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/15/2013 3:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/15/2013 2:57:00 PM (view original):
Most overrated = Joe Namath.

I wouldn't call Brady overrated.  I actually don't think I know anyone that would.  What talent does he have around him, exactly, that other teams don't have?
I mentioned this in another thread but he's had a coach that understood how to create match-up problems.    Manning has had coaches who said "Hey, make something happen out there!"
I said this on page 1.
1/23/2013 5:21 PM
If you're telling me Manning is a better QB than Brady, I'd agree with you.  Manning is the coach of the offense.

I'd also argue that Brady might have some say in how the offense is run.  He's the general on the field, he calls audibles and changes assignments as well.


1/24/2013 9:02 AM
I don't know that to be true.   I was simply responding to your claim of "weapons".   Scheming to get players open is a weapon.    I think Brady has had better offensive schemes.
1/24/2013 9:56 AM
I've seen him do it.  Unless he has Bill in his ear telling him what to do, telling him to call an audible or shift assignments.  So it's your eyes against mine.  He's not an idiot, he's a veteran who understands defenses.

If you want to argue that he wasn't that astute his first 4 years in the league while the team is winning Super Bowls, and Bill was the one getting guys open for him during that time, ok.  I don't really have a way to argue against that, it's your opinion against mine, and I would actually agree with that somewhat.  But again, I know that BB had 1 winning record in his coaching career before Brady started at QB.  Did Bill "figure it out" in Week 3 of the 2001 season? I guess it's possible, but I'd say it's unlikely it's that simple.
1/24/2013 10:02 AM
During BB's coaching career, pre-Brady:

1991     19th YPG     16th Pts
1992     18th YPG     20th Pts
1993     20th YPG     15th Pts
1994     16th YPG     11th Pts
1995     21th YPG     25th Pts
2000     22nd YPG    25th Pts

Offensive Genius.  He made Brady.  
1/24/2013 10:06 AM
I'm just curious, does anyone here think that Brady isn't in the top 5 or 10 QBs of all time?

I only go to top 10 because some people always trot out names like Otto Graham, Sammy Baugh, and Johnny U when these types of discussions start.
1/24/2013 10:11 AM
Posted by bistiza on 1/23/2013 3:13:00 PM (view original):
honestly, you seem to be convinced that 'elite' doesn't exist...so going with that thinking, OK he's not elite
No, elite very much does exist. There are several QBs I would consider elite in the NFL right now, including Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, and Drew Brees among possible others.

However, the gap between those guys and Brady is HUGE. In fact, if we include Brady in that group, there are about ten other guys who are better than him that should be there too.

Brady is above average when he's at his best but doesn't make plays anywhere near the level of the guys I just mentioned.
however, whether the talent around him carried him or he is the luckiest human on the planet, his numbers at QB dwarf nearly every QB to play in his era....which locks him up a spot in Canton whether you like him or not

He's been carried into the HOF on the backs of team mates and he doesn't deserve it. That's the biggest among MANY reasons why he's the most over rated player in NFL history.
So now their coaching leads to wins? You told me BB was overrated.

The two are completely separate statements.

The first one still stands - Belicheat IS over rated. If he was as good as his hype, he'd have won SBs in Cleveland, and he didn't.

The second one was merely me responding to someone else's assertion that coaching wins them games and was in no way me making my own statement.
I showed you visual evidence of Brady fitting the ball down the field into tight spaces.  8 minutes worth.  Everyone is not always wide open.

I didn't watch it, so I have no idea what you showed. If I get a chance later I may view it, but I make no promises.
You still haven't shown me the weapons that carried Brady to 3 Super Bowl wins. 
The defense is one weapon. The offensive line is another. Receivers who play well within the system is a third. I'll stick with those three for now.
This reply just shows your bitterness towards the Pats.  Which is why you are saying Brady sucks and BB can't coach.  

Burnsy, i have no clue why you are even responding to this nitwit.  He clearly doesn't want a logical argument.  I mean, he even stated that he didn't watch a single second of the video you posted.




1/24/2013 10:14 AM
I was talking about Manning being better than Brady but way to be overly defensive.

Smart coaches aren't very smart when their players suck.   But, with NE, it seems that BB, who I don't like at all, has gotten a lot of production from players who weren't highly thought of coming out of college.    Did he need Brady to be his triggerman?   I'd say he did.   Bledsoe wasn't a slug but he seemed more like a "force it downfield" kind of guy.
1/24/2013 10:17 AM
Posted by toddcommish on 1/24/2013 10:06:00 AM (view original):
I'm just curious, does anyone here think that Brady isn't in the top 5 or 10 QBs of all time?

I only go to top 10 because some people always trot out names like Otto Graham, Sammy Baugh, and Johnny U when these types of discussions start.
He's clearly a top 5.  The next few years could determine if he goes down as the best.  If he wins 1 more Superbowl and puts up stats like he has since 2007 for another 3 years, he can go down as the GOAT.  
1/24/2013 10:23 AM
Posted by toddcommish on 1/24/2013 10:06:00 AM (view original):
I'm just curious, does anyone here think that Brady isn't in the top 5 or 10 QBs of all time?

I only go to top 10 because some people always trot out names like Otto Graham, Sammy Baugh, and Johnny U when these types of discussions start.
I think an argument can me made that he's not Top 5.  I'll take Marino, Manning, probably Young and Montana.  And if you like any of the older guys, he slips out.
1/24/2013 10:29 AM
No way Brady is top five. To say there are 12 or 13 qb's playing today that are better than him is Swampcrazy.
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