All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
1/30/2013 12:33 PM
cmon guys...its the system.  just like it is with the Packers.  Aaron Rodgers...not elite.

No.

Rodgers and Brady are very different QBs in entirely different situations.

Rodgers makes plays on a consistent basis that prove he is elite. Brady manages to not screw up a talented team by playing well within a system. There is a vast canyon between them in terms of talent and ability, and Rodgers is far superior to Brady by enough that comparisons aren't even realistic unless you drink Brady worship kool-aid.
You said any decent QB could do what Brady does.  I bring up Bledsoe, and your response is essentially "except for him."

Bledsoe did just fine for the Patriots. It's you who is saying otherwise, not me.
Bledsoe, on the other hand, had few good weapons and struggled.  Are you saying that Bledsoe is incapable of playing conservatively?

I think you are grossly over stating any struggles Bledsoe may have had. In fact, I don't recall him struggling at all. He was considered for a time to be one of the best QBs in the league.
I know very little about Brady's personal life.  I'm surprised you think you do. 
I know how he acts on the field and in public much of the time (like an arrogant a**). I know he got one foolish woman pregnant and turned right around and got with another foolish woman.
There are a handful of athletes I root against because of decisions they've made off the field.  But Brady isn't one of them.
I guess you find his behaviors acceptable. I do not. I must admit I am curious to see who you root against for off field behavior and why.
That's my point with this - nobody really knows how much of an effect it had. 
Nobody ever knows how much of an effect most kinds of cheating have. Exactly how much of an edge did Lance Armstrong get by his various forms of doping? Some, to be sure, but no one can actually quantify how much. Yet his titles are stripped, and the Patriots title is not, and that's BS.
 Maybe the Rams score, Brady is forced to throw more, and has a BIGGER game, helping his legacy.
And maybe a giant dragon would have swooped down and ate Kurt Warner and the Patriots would win because his backup wasn't as good. Brady didn't do much in that game because he wasn't (and isn't) as talented as people want to believe, and he wouldn't have done any more in other circumstances. Vinateri should have been MVP for making the game winner before Brady should have gotten it.
Brady is overrated.
I've shown you many ways in which the perception of Brady is far above what he actually is able to do. This is not in question at all. He's not only over rated, but the single most over rated player in NFL history. No one else can possibly be close.
Any decent QB could do what he did.
I believe this is true, but it's less solid than the fact that Brady is over rated.

However, I will say it is unquestionably true that people put Brady ahead of many QBs who could have done what he did and more if they were in his situation.
Tom Brady is a bad human being.
This is a fact. He's at the center of a number of controversies because of things he's said and done on the football field, he's said and done ridiculous things in public, and he's a proven womanizer.
The Pats won Super Bowls because of Spygate.
Of course they did. The Rams should have destroyed them, but the Pats defense (READ: NOT BRADY) won the game for them.
Tom Brady is a product of a "system" (that hadn't worked until he started playing).
This is a fact. The system worked fine the whole time, including for Matt Cassell.
Please stop giving this moron the time of day.
Are you angry because I told the truth about your hero, Tom Brady, and you can't stand to hear the fact that he's over rated and over hyped? You must be one of the higher ranking officials in the Brady-cult.

When someone presents the truth about Brady, the defense the Brady cult offers is simple denial and insults.

"No, that's not true, he's awesome and you're a (insert insult here).  Now join us and have some kool-aid."


1/30/2013 1:36 PM
Hhahahaha!!  Yeah, i'm angry with you!  Grr!!!

Hahaha!!!

The Rams should have destroyed them?  Because they of course destroyed the Pats by 7 points earlier in the season.  You know, a game where the Pats saw what they were going to face 1st hand in the Superbowl.

Your logic is flat out baseless.  It's going off what you "see".  All stats point to Brady being great.  All titles point to him being great.  Everyone in their right mind says Brady is great.  It's fools like you that say otherwise.

I ain't mad at ya bro.  I'm actually laughing at you...because i see your dumbass still infront of your TV watching Pats games and yelling and throwing crap at your TV.
1/30/2013 1:59 PM
All stats point to Brady being great.

All stats point to Brady being slightly above average most of his career and doing exceptionally well when he has an all-world receiver and other exceptional talent catching the ball for him - the same thing that any decent NFL QB would accomplish in the same circumstances.
All titles point to him being great.
Three titles - all of which occurred nearly or more than a decade ago - point to nothing but a talented team winning in the playoffs, as might be expected of it.

The first title should never have happened. Brady fumbled and screwed his team and got a do over where they won (the now famous 'tuck rule') and then his team cheated its way to a SB win it didn't deserve, and he sure as heck wasn't the reason they won.

The other two titles only prove the team was successful. You and many others vastly over rate QBs based on wins in the Super Bowl, and of course you do it for your hero.
Everyone in their right mind says Brady is great.  It's fools like you that say otherwise.
Everyone who over rates Brady thinks he's great. Everyone who buys into the BS hype thinks he's great.

Put another way: Everyone who passes out and/or drinks the kool-aid of the Brady worship cult thinks Brady is great.

Any objective individual who looks at the situation realizes Brady is slightly above average for most of his career and doesn't deserve to be considered as much more than that, yet he is by so many (including you), and THAT makes him over rated.

To help you understand, I'll do what you do: Anyone in their right mind says Brady is over rated. It's fools like you that say otherwise.
I'm actually laughing at you...because i see your dumbass still infront of your TV watching Pats games and yelling and throwing crap at your TV.
Then you make far too many foolish assumptions.

I don't yell or throw anything at the TV. First, because that's now how I am, and second, because even if I was like that, there's no reason.

Brady has played on some incredibly talented Pats teams and by all rights if he was HALF AS GOOD as you claim, he should have at least five SB rings and be on his way to number six right now, and maybe he should have more.

Except he's just not that good. The team is amazing and so it does well consistently in the regular season, but come playoff time, Brady chokes. Three SB wins a decade ago doesn't change choking every since.

So I have no reason to be angry. The last Pats game I watched showed me Brady had all day to throw and still couldn't manage to get his incredibly talented team to score a single point in the second half. Yeah, that sure made me angry. *rolls eyes*




1/30/2013 2:08 PM
Biz

My point with Rodgers is that you can use the same arguments you use for Brady for Rodgers, who I consider to be the 1st or 2nd best QB in football today. As crazy as it sounds to you, it sounds similarly crazy to me when you use the arguments against Brady.

Bledsoe stuggled the last 2 years in NE. He lost 13 of his last 18 starts there. Id post evidence, but youd ignore it, like younignored other evidence to disprove your argument. What changed between Bledsoe and Brady? Are you saying Bledsoe was incapable of using the same system Brady used? Or is it that the system was developed the moment Brady started playing?

Please describe the off the field controversies Brady has been in.

I'll ask you again to show evidence of the Pats having video of the Rams, and other Super Bowl teams, walk-through. And why didn't the Pats stop the Rams from scoring on their first drive? Why did they wait until the 2nd quarter to capitalize on their knowledge?
1/30/2013 2:10 PM
Hahaha!!!  
1/30/2013 2:11 PM
from football outsiders (an unbaised outside party, unless you want to argue that they are drinking the Brady coolaid as well and writing their formulas with the intention of showing that he is a great QB):
Where throws are attempted (not necessarily completed)
Tom Brady (611 passes):
Year Team Pos G GS YAC Rank Short Mid Deep Bomb
2011 NE QB 16 16 6.4 3 51% 33% 11% 4%

Aaron Rodgers (502 passes):
Year Team Pos G GS YAC Rank Short Mid Deep Bomb
2011 GB QB 15 15 5.9 6 51% 31% 12% 6%

Drew Brees (657 passes)
Year Team Pos G GS YAC Rank Short Mid Deep Bomb
2011 NO QB 16 16 5.2 23 52% 31% 12% 5%

They are from 2011 because they dont have the data posted for 2012 yet.  Doesnt look like a huge difference between the 3 of them (Manning doesnt have 2011 numbers).  it definitely doesnt prove that Brady checks the ball down constantly and Rodgers/Brees is making plays down the field at an enormous rate.




total passing-
dyar- defense adjusted yards above replacement
yar - yards above replacement
dvoa defense adjusted value over average
voa - value over average

Effective Yards, listed in red, translate DVOA into a yards per attempt figure. This provides an easy comparison: in general, players with more Effective Yards than standard yards played better than standard stats would otherwise indicate, while players with fewer Effective Yards than standard yards played worse than standard stats would otherwise indicate. Effective Yards are not the best way to measure total value because they are more dependent on usage than DYAR.
 

PASSING: Minimum 100 passes, 39 players ranked (2012)

Player Team DYAR Rk YAR Rk DVOA Rk VOA QBR Rank Passes Yards EYds TD FK FL INT C% DPI
T.Brady NE 2,035 1 1,928 2 35.1% 1 32.3% 77.1 2 662 4,623 6,311 34 2 0 8 63.5% 14/220
P.Manning DEN 1,800 2 1,970 1 32.7% 2 36.5% 84.1 1 602 4,526 5,744 37 0 2 11 69.0% 11/177
D.Brees NO 1,444 3 1,414 3 19.9% 5 18.8% 67.9 9 693 4,914 5,716 43 3 1 18 63.7% 4/50
A.Rodgers GB 1,395 4 1,292 5 23.3% 4 20.4% 72.5 5 602 4,016 5,156 39 1 4 8 67.7% 9/178
M.Ryan ATL 1,216 5 1,359 4 17.0% 7 19.8% 74.5 4 644 4,502 5,131 32 1 2 14 68.6% 6/60
T.Romo DAL 1,187 6 1,084 6 15.5% 9 12.8% 62.7 13 683 4,635 5,188 28 1 3 19 66.1% 7/124
M.Stafford DET 1,148 7 890 8 11.9% 12 6.3% 58.9 15 755 4,769 5,568 20 1 4 17 60.2% 7/140
R.Wilson SEA 867 8 745 12 19.7% 6 14.9% 69.6 8 429 2,915 3,443 26 3 3 9 64.4% 6/122
E.Manning NYG 770 9 811 10 9.5% 13 10.2% 67.4 10 555 3,785 4,056 26 2 1 15 60.1% 12/232
B.Roethlisberger PIT 757 10 774 11 13.1% 11 13.3% 62.8 12 473 3,068 3,553 25 1 2 8 64.3% 4/41
R.Griffin WAS 729 11 824 9 16.7% 8 19.9% 71.4 6 424 2,959 3,100 20 2 0 5 66.5% 5/91
M.Schaub HOU 695 12 899 7 7.4% 14 12.4% 62.6 14 572 3,811 3,956 22 4 0 12 64.3% 7/121
C.Kaepernick SF 553 13 472 13 25.7% 3 19.6% 76.8 3 234 1,687 1,955 10 2 0 3 62.7% 2/43


Football Outsiders seems to think that Brady was the best QB in the NFL in 2012 in nearly every one of their "advanced" metrics.  Admittedly, i cant tell you how they come up with any of them, but they do serve as a comparison point.  Would I say that Brady was the best QB in 2012? Not at all.  But to say that he isnt even in the conversation just is not supported by the numbers.

I guess that might be the point.  you can show all the numbers that you want to someone, but if they "see something with their own eyes" they are never going to admit that what they are seeing might not be what is actually there.

its like old baseball scouts as depicted in Moneyball.
1/30/2013 2:19 PM
Why are you using stats like that!  We're going by "sight" only.  I mean, that's all biz can say or do.

This is freaking hysterical.  EVERY stat shhet shows that Brady is a "top", "elite", "great"....QB.  It's just that biz says he's not.
1/30/2013 2:58 PM
This is a typical bis argument.

1)  Make a ridiculous statement, present it as fact
2)  Make vague references that he already provided the backing data to his argument ("go back and read it")
3)  Refuse to point his opponent(s) to where the alleged data resides ("I'm not going to repeat myself")
4)  Declare victory in the argument/debate since nobody can refute his phantom data
1/30/2013 3:43 PM
ooo...heres another fun one.  Bis keeps saying that Brady is a system QB because Matt Cassel did well in the system then never did anything in KC.

Matt Cassel with NE in 2008:
G GS Record Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng Y/A AY/A Y/C Y/G Rate Sk
16 15 10-5 327 516 63.4 3693 21 4.1 11 2.1 76 7.2 7 11.3 230.8 89.4 47

Matt Cassel with KC in 2010
G GS Record Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng Y/A AY/A Y/C Y/G Rate Sk
15 15 10-5 262 450 58.2 3116 27 6 7 1.6 75 6.9 7.4 11.9 207.7 93 26

That seems like a fairly solid and comparable season.  Apparently Matt Cassel was able to perform outside the Pat's "system" even if it was only for 1 season.  but, i guess he only did something in the Pat's system for one season as well.  The thing that stands out to me is teh sack totals.  With Brady's "superior" offensive line, Cassel was sacked 47 times!!!  Then, 2 seasons later in KC he was only sacked 26 behind what must be a lesser line, unless the Chiefs also have one of the best groups season after season.
1/30/2013 4:33 PM
My point with Rodgers is that you can use the same arguments you use for Brady for Rodgers, who I consider to be the 1st or 2nd best QB in football today. As crazy as it sounds to you, it sounds similarly crazy to me when you use the arguments against Brady.

The difference is Rodgers actually does many of the things he gets credit for doing, but Brady doesn't do what he gets credit for doing. Rodgers makes plays other QBs couldn't make on a regular basis - Brady gets credit for doing this but does it far less often than his hype would have you believe.

The reason it sounds so crazy for me to argue this way about Brady is because the hype is so huge for him that the reality is seen as somehow being untrue. What Brady actually does is engulfed by the hype so you can't see it.
What changed between Bledsoe and Brady? Are you saying Bledsoe was incapable of using the same system Brady used? Or is it that the system was developed the moment Brady started playing?

I'm not sure when the system began. It's possible it was already in place and the team was simply struggling, as happens from time to time. It's also possible the system was implemented for Brady and also worked for Cassell. You'd probably have to ask Belicheat or someone within the Pats organization to determine exactly what changes they made, when they made them, and why.
Please describe the off the field controversies Brady has been in.
I already mentioned several of them - and here I thought you were annoyed by repeats of what I say. I'll just repeat one for now: He got one foolish woman pregnant and immediately got together with another foolish woman.
I'll ask you again to show evidence of the Pats having video of the Rams, and other Super Bowl teams, walk-through.
Do the research on the history of it for yourself if you want to know. I don't have the time or the desire to go back through and find a link for you. I remember it happened, so I'm sure it's there.
And why didn't the Pats stop the Rams from scoring on their first drive? Why did they wait until the 2nd quarter to capitalize on their knowledge?
You're talking in absolutes now, and that's ridiculous.

I'm sure they used the information throughout the game. That doesn't mean they will absolutely stop every play or every score, as you are foolishly suggesting.

If you're going to purposefully ask questions based on absolutes, I'll start doing the same for you and we'll just go around and around until you want to stop. It gets you nowhere.
Would I say that Brady was the best QB in 2012? Not at all.  But to say that he isnt even in the conversation just is not supported by the numbers.
The numbers support that Brady is a better than average QB. I'd still take many current QBs before I'd take him. He's also a piece of crap as a human being. Period.
1/30/2013 4:46 PM
Bis, are you going to completely ignore the football outsiders data?

The stats show that Brady is an elite QB. In 2009, FO has him as #1. 2010, #1. 2011, #3. 2012 #1.

That's pretty freaking good. I think you're allowing your disdain for Brady as a person to cloud your judgement.
1/30/2013 6:22 PM
Biz,

In your response to the Brady-Rodgers comparison, my point is I could say the same thing, but switch the names Brady and Rodgers and have it be similarly crazy to me. If your argument was simply "Brady gets all the credit for the Super Bowls, it's unfair" I would understand that to a point. But he is constantly in the playoffs, largely because of what he does on the field, which you disagree with entirely, dispite the overwhelming evidence thats been presented to you. That's where we largely bump heads.

You don't know when the "system" began because there's no magic system that works in football. You can't pinpoint it because it doesn't exist in the way you think it does.

You said Ty Law got the pick 6 because he knew what play was coming in the 2nd quarter, based on the fact the Pats knew the first 15 offensive plays. Why didn't they know the plays before that play? If they did, they surely would have kept the Rams from moving the ball down the field. "Used that info throughout the game"? You said it was their first 15 plays.

Dating women and getting them pregnant makes him a bad person? ...... What? You mentioned he is arrogant? Based on what? Have you seen Joe Flacco speak? He's much more arrogant. Do you hate him too?

1/31/2013 8:54 AM
he difference is Rodgers actually does many of the things he gets credit for doing, but Brady doesn't do what he gets credit for doing. Rodgers makes plays other QBs couldn't make on a regular basis - Brady gets credit for doing this but does it far less often than his hype would have you believe.

The reason it sounds so crazy for me to argue this way about Brady is because the hype is so huge for him that the reality is seen as somehow being untrue. What Brady actually does is engulfed by the hype so you can't see it.

No, you sound crazy because you are a fool...and filled with hate towards Brady and the Pats.  You are a joke.


I'm not sure when the system began. It's possible it was already in place and the team was simply struggling, as happens from time to time. It's also possible the system was implemented for Brady and also worked for Cassell. You'd probably have to ask Belicheat or someone within the Pats organization to determine exactly what changes they made, when they made them, and why.

Haha!

1/31/2013 8:55 AM
oops...messed that up.
1/31/2013 9:03 AM
In your response to the Brady-Rodgers comparison, my point is I could say the same thing, but switch the names Brady and Rodgers and have it be similarly crazy to me.

It's not "similarly crazy" to me. It's perfectly reasonable to point out how Brady doesn't make elite plays nearly as often as he should if he's supposedly elite. Rodgers - and most other QBs reasonably held to be elite - DO make plays that show how elite they are and they do it on a regular basis most of the time.

Brady simply doesn't make the elite plays often enough to be considered elite. The ONLY reason he gets considered elite anyway is because of the hype of three decade old SB wins his team carried him to and stats that are inflated by a system and talented team mates. Never has a QB gotten so much credit for doing so little.
But he is constantly in the playoffs, largely because of what he does on the field, which you disagree with entirely, dispite the overwhelming evidence thats been presented to you. That's where we largely bump heads.
He's "constantly in the playoffs" for the same main reason he won 3 SBs - he has played on talented teams. Throw in some cheating to win and some good coaching moves (I think BB is over rated but he's made some good moves I can't deny) and you end up in the playoffs with any decent NFL QB.

In short: You give him far too much credit for not screwing up a talented team and good coaching.

As I already said, if Brady was HALF AS GOOD as any of you Brady lovers state, he'd have won at LEAST 5 rings by now and be on his way to 6 - and really, he'd probably have 7 or 8 and be on his way to another. There's no reason a QB as talented as you CLAIM Brady is wouldn't have been able to get the job done with the talent on that team.

Yet what we actually see is Brady has NOT gotten the job done despite the talent and the coaching. Those things have carried him to wins and playoffs, but they weren't enough to get more rings. If he were even half the QB you claim, he'd have been able to take the team the rest of the way. Instead, he chokes and they lose. That evidence is overwhelming.
You don't know when the "system" began because there's no magic system that works in football. You can't pinpoint it because it doesn't exist in the way you think it does.

No. I can't pinpoint when it began because I'm not a member of the coaching staff and have never been one and haven't asked them when it began. The point it actually began is irrelevant anyway because it's clearly been in place for Brady for either all or almost all of his career as a starter, and it was there for Cassell as well.

It's not magic. It's simply good coaching strategy to implement a system that takes advantage of both matchups and the players you have. BB and Brady himself are both well aware of Brady's lack of accuracy into tight windows, so they set it up so he has plenty of screens (which have worked tremendously well overall) and lots of underneath options and checkdowns if he needs them and went out and got players who fit well into this system - guys like Welker, Faulk, Woodhead, etc. Welker is talented at getting open, and Faulk and Woodhead are examples of players that also excel because of the system they play in NE.
You said Ty Law got the pick 6 because he knew what play was coming in the 2nd quarter, based on the fact the Pats knew the first 15 offensive plays. Why didn't they know the plays before that play? If they did, they surely would have kept the Rams from moving the ball down the field. "Used that info throughout the game"? You said it was their first 15 plays.

I remember they knew the first 15 plays, but obviously there was other information they learned from the video of the Rams walk-through. Again, you are deliberately thinking in absolutes to try to argue against what I'm saying and it doesn't work that way because it's not absolute.

Also, as I already pointed out, knowing the plays doesn't necessarily mean you can absolutely stop every single one of them or stop a team from ever scoring. It makes it easier, but you also have to remember how great the Rams offense was.

If you don't stop ignoring everything in favor of absolutes, I'm done discussing this with you.
Dating women and getting them pregnant makes him a bad person?
 
Yes.

There are too many children growing up with single parents and/or parents who don't love them and raise them correctly. Many of these are because people who are dating are having irresponsible sex and making babies that should never exist. Many of them can't afford these children and won't love them or be good parents, and it creates a host of problems for society that would be solved if these idiots just didn't have sex. If you can't be responsible for using birth control methods (there are plenty out there) to prevent unwanted pregnancies, then you shouldn't be having sex at all.

Brady doesn't get an exemption from this because he's famous or wealthy. He's just as much of an idiot (and the woman is too) for making a baby he shouldn't have been making by having sex he had no business having.

By the way, do not attempt to argue this with me, because I won't do it. I believe what I believe about this and don't care if you or anyone disagrees, so there is no point in an argument because I won't change my mind.
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