All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Patriots 9.5 points favorites over Ravens
1/16/2013 10:47 AM
The guys you're mentioning weren't talentless hacks, but they also weren't on the same level as weapons on most other teams with great QBs.
1/16/2013 11:16 AM
I can't really argue against that for Manning as James, Harrison and Wayne were pretty talented.   However, Collie, Garcon and Addai/Brown sure didn't provide much talent in Manning's later years.   And Stokely is a slower version of Welker.

But, I guess, I should ask who Brees had in NO?    That might be a good example of coaching making a difference.    He still piled up the yards/TDs but his completion percentage dropped about 8 points with the same offensive cast.
1/16/2013 11:31 AM
Even with Harrison and Wayne, it's not like they have a track-record of being great aside from Manning throwing them the ball.  Wayne put up numbers again this year, but it seems like Luck is pretty good too.  Part of the problem is that great QBs and great WRs get tied at the hip for the bulk of their careers most of the time so it's hard to tell where the credit should go.  Moss, when movitated, was a dominant receiver that elevated every QB he touched, but there aren't a lot of obvious comparables out there.

Brady has clearly played with more interchangable parts on offense than most elite QBs, that much is absolutely certain.
1/16/2013 11:34 AM
Remember that Wayne is still a great WR, and was there during Manning's later years.  Garcon makes for a well above-average 2nd WR.

I'd argue that Colston, who has been there every year Brees has been there, is more talented than anyone Brady had pre-Welker.  I like Lance Moore a lot.  Brees has also always had a great receiving RB to throw to out of the backfield, such as Reggie Bush or Darren Sproles.  I actually think Pierre Thomas is a very good/boarderline-great running back, and I'm unsure why they split his carries with Ingram as much as they do.  Obviously Jimmy Graham is a beast.

I do agree that coaching in football is a big deal.  You lose a great head coach for the season, and everyone suffers a little bit.
1/16/2013 12:15 PM
Kevin Faulk was an excellent receiving RB (never had less than 2 catches a game and was often above 3 during his hey day).  Played with Brady for Brady's entire career, though obviously is a bench player now.  He was not however during the Superbowl runs, perfect season, etc.  It is also a bit odd that by far his most productive season was when Cassel was under center (500+ yards on over 6 a carry with 58 catches for another 480+).  Some of that is Maroney got hurt, but still a bit strange. 

Deion Branch was a far superior player to guys like Pierre Garcon (during his time in Indy).  Branch just couldn't stay healthy in Seattle.  Ben Watson is a pretty good TE as well.

I guess the point is that there was a lot more talent in NE than people want to give credit for, but Brady and Bill certainly elevated those around them.  They just weren't total scrubs.  Heck even a guy like Maroney was a pretty darn good RB before the injuries. 

Also keep in mind, it wasn't like Brady was setting the world on fire until Moss and Welker showed up.  His Career TD to INT ratio wasn't even better than 2 to 1 until that 2007 season, he is at almost 3 to 1 now. 
1/16/2013 12:17 PM
Yeah, you're wearing some serious Brady goggles.

Thomas/Moore - undrafted FA
Colston - 7th round pick
Bush -never a full season
Graham - new to the game
1/16/2013 12:40 PM
Posted by stinenavy on 1/14/2013 5:16:00 PM (view original):
It's an interesting line. I'd think the line will come down a bit as the game approaches, as most expect a close game.

Tangent:

Watching the game, I kept thinking about how much Schaub sucked and how he reminded me a lot of Delhomme (prior to his productive career ending in that Arizona playoff game). He kept missing the throws when it mattered and refused to throw it deep. Then I took a look at his boxscore.
 
 
  C/ATT YDS AVG TD INT Sacks QBR
M. Schaub 34/51 343 6.7 2 1 1-9 58.7 90.6
Team 34/51 334 6.5 2 1 1-9 -- --

Looks like he had a decent game, when in reality he had a poor performance.
The story of Matt Stafford's season...he threw for almost 5K, but he was terrible...I watched every Lions game, start to finish.
1/16/2013 12:50 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/16/2013 11:34:00 AM (view original):
Remember that Wayne is still a great WR, and was there during Manning's later years.  Garcon makes for a well above-average 2nd WR.

I'd argue that Colston, who has been there every year Brees has been there, is more talented than anyone Brady had pre-Welker.  I like Lance Moore a lot.  Brees has also always had a great receiving RB to throw to out of the backfield, such as Reggie Bush or Darren Sproles.  I actually think Pierre Thomas is a very good/boarderline-great running back, and I'm unsure why they split his carries with Ingram as much as they do.  Obviously Jimmy Graham is a beast.

I do agree that coaching in football is a big deal.  You lose a great head coach for the season, and everyone suffers a little bit.
Wayne has had one great year without Manning, this year, and everyone seems to think the guy throwing the ball to him now is pretty good. 

But I'm not going to go blow for blow with you - the pattern is pretty clear, the guys that people give as examples of players that Manning has had that Brady hasn't all made their name playing with Manning and spend most/all of their prime years with him, to the point where you can't really seperate their influence on Manning from his on them.   The same, at this point, is largely true of the guys you listed with Brees, and a good number of the guys you listed with Brees were on no one's radar until they started playing with him.  The one offensive skill player who has been with Brady long-term, is Welker, and well... kind of the same story as some of these other guys.

I'm not necessarily saying  he hasn't had less talented weapons than other elite QBs, but I am saying that the fact that the Patriots treat their parts so interchangably has made that gap seem a lot wider than it is.
1/16/2013 1:23 PM
Another point: What great weapons did Brady have pre-Welker? I'll wait here while you find them. (directed towards bistiza)
An offensive line that rarely let him get touched (he's had that almost every season of his career) and a talented defense (not as common as the offense but was present in several of the years).

He also had a great RB in Corey Dillon during the one SB winning season.
The point still stands - Brady, over the course of his career, has had less talent on his offense than other elite QBs. 
Two points:

First, Brady isn't an "elite QB". He's hyped as that all the time, but when it comes to actually MAKING PLAYS, he doesn't get it done on the level of anyone else considered to be a legit elite QB.

I see Peyton and Eli Manning make plays. I've seen Roethisberger, Rodgers, Brees, and even Kurt Warner make plays that led to their teams getting key wins. Yet with Brady, his biggest attribute is his ability to not mess things up when the team around him has already done enough or will do enough to win the games with or without him.

You plug any of those guys I mentioned in as the NE QB instead of Brady and they probably have five SB rings and not just the three the team carried him to.
But, as I said, everyone sucked before they got to NE and Brady magically made them better.
Brady didn't make anyone better.  The players were simply good within the system. In fact, some of them made Brady look better than he is.

Randy Moss was the best wideout on the planet and made Daunte Culpepper look all-world when he played with him, then he shows up and suddenly Brady is setting records. He made Brady better.

Combine that offensive line with those receivers and put any of those guys I named in place of Brady and the records Brady has would be theirs and they would be bigger records.

As far as I'm concerned, Brady is the most over-rated player in NFL history because the gap between his actual abilities and his hype is phenomenally HUGE.

Brady gets far too much credit for the three SB wins. Those were talented teams that would have won with him or any other half decent NFL QB under center, including especially the first one against the Rams where the defense won the game.

Brady doesn't take enough flack for the two SB losses. Anyone remember that blown pass to Welker in the SB that probably gives Brady a fourth ring? Instead Eli Manning gets a second by doing what Brady is too often credited for doing, which leads me to my next point.

Brady is billed as "clutch" but he failed massively many times that no one seems to remember, including 4th and 2 against Indy where he blew yet another pass (to Faulk) which would have gotten the first down they so desperately needed.

Without him the team goes 11-5 by using a QB who had never even started a single game in the NFL before that season. This proves there isn't much drop off on that team, with that talent, and in that system when someone else steps under center.

Brady is basically what Trent Dilfer was to the Ravens when they won the SB. He's a system QB that is asked not to screw up and lose games when the talent on the rest of the team helps them win.

The difference between Dilfer and Brady is that Brady has done it for more years (to be fair, he was younger when he started in the system) and has managed not to screw up when he has been carried by a talented team to five SBs and three SB wins as opposed to one appearance and one win.

I don't see anyone saying Trent Dilfer was "elite" or destined for the HOF, but Brady's talented teams have made sure he gets that praise, which he doesn't deserve in my opinion.

He's good, but he's not great, and he's certainly not "elite" just because he happens to play QB and doesn't screw up a talented team that would win with or without him.
1/16/2013 1:41 PM
So the guy with the most playoff wins ever isn't an elite QB...LOFL!
1/16/2013 2:03 PM
So playing on some incredibly talented teams that won a lot of games - and would have no matter who was under center as long as they didn't screw up - that's what makes someone an elite QB in your mind?

The only thing people ever offer when trying to defend Brady as "elite" is wins the team would have gotten without him (total wins, playoff wins, SB wins) or stats he got because talented players kept him untouched (he's always had a great offensive line) and other talented players got him records (Randy Moss was the real MVP that year, but Brady got all the credit).

There isn't one thing Brady does by himself that makes him elite. He manages not to screw up the talent and system around him and for that he's considered to be "elite" and worthy of the HOF - and that's EXACTLY what makes him the most over-rated player in NFL history.

1/16/2013 2:05 PM
Dilfer won a SB because he played with arguably the best defense in the history of the game.  He had 12 TDs and 11 picks in 8 games. He actually wasn't very good at "not screwing up." The fact that you compare Brady to Dilfer is nauseating.  

You are overhyping the Pats o-line.  They've always been very good, but I don't think I'd ever call them the best in the league in any particular year.  Thank you for finding the 1 guy I didn't find in Dillon.  He had 1 great RB once.  And he doesn't make plays? I'm not sure you've seen him play.  I don't know where to go with that.

I'm trying to look at the other points you made but it really appears that there's a lot of words and not much substance.  Be more succinct, please.
1/16/2013 2:14 PM (edited)
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/16/2013 12:17:00 PM (view original):
Yeah, you're wearing some serious Brady goggles.

Thomas/Moore - undrafted FA
Colston - 7th round pick
Bush -never a full season
Graham - new to the game
Brady was a 7th round pick.  I'm not sure what draft position has to do with anything.

Bush was active in most games he played with Brees.  I recognize he was injury-prone.

Yes, Graham has had 2 fantastic seasons with Brees.
1/16/2013 2:09 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 1/16/2013 2:05:00 PM (view original):
Dilfer won a SB because he played with arguably the best defense in the history of the game.  He had 12 TDs and 11 picks in 8 games. He actually wasn't very good at "not screwing up." The fact that you compare Brady to Dilfer is nauseating.  

You are overhyping the Pats o-line.  They've always been very good, but I don't think I'd ever call them the best in the league in any particular year.  Thank you for finding the 1 guy I didn't find in Dillon.  He had 1 great RB once.  And he doesn't make plays? I'm not sure you've seen him play.  I don't know where to go with that.

I'm trying to look at the other points you made but it really appears that there's a lot of words and not much substance.  Be more succinct, please.
LOL.

Seriously, block him now, or do it later and regret the time you lost in between.
1/16/2013 2:21 PM (edited)
Posted by moranis on 1/16/2013 12:15:00 PM (view original):
Kevin Faulk was an excellent receiving RB (never had less than 2 catches a game and was often above 3 during his hey day).  Played with Brady for Brady's entire career, though obviously is a bench player now.  He was not however during the Superbowl runs, perfect season, etc.  It is also a bit odd that by far his most productive season was when Cassel was under center (500+ yards on over 6 a carry with 58 catches for another 480+).  Some of that is Maroney got hurt, but still a bit strange. 

Deion Branch was a far superior player to guys like Pierre Garcon (during his time in Indy).  Branch just couldn't stay healthy in Seattle.  Ben Watson is a pretty good TE as well.

I guess the point is that there was a lot more talent in NE than people want to give credit for, but Brady and Bill certainly elevated those around them.  They just weren't total scrubs.  Heck even a guy like Maroney was a pretty darn good RB before the injuries. 

Also keep in mind, it wasn't like Brady was setting the world on fire until Moss and Welker showed up.  His Career TD to INT ratio wasn't even better than 2 to 1 until that 2007 season, he is at almost 3 to 1 now. 
Kevin Faulk doesn't have the talent Reggie Bush had or Darren Sproles has.  If we're comparing catches, Bush and Sproles average about 5 a game.

I would suggest Garcon, and Branch, when he was playing, and at his peak, were at similar levels.  I think you're undervaluing Garcon's contributions.

I'm not trying to suggest the people Brady was playing with were total scrubs, and I recognize my choice of words earlier in describing some players was poor in that regard.  I'm arguing that Brady did more than less.  
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