Posted by bistiza on 1/16/2013 2:48:00 PM (view original):

Peyton Manning is similar - I actually don't think he had great lines in Indy, but he was rarely sacked.

That's because Peyton Manning is actually GOOD.

Peyton Manning is not only an elite QB but easily the best QB in the past 20 years if not all of NFL history. Peyton is so far above Brady that the light from Peyton would take 10 million years to reach Brady.

Like I said before, Brady is way more like Trent Dilfer than he has ever been like Peyton Manning.

Even calling Brady "slightly more talented" than Dilfer is insulting.  Look up the numbers. 

The numbers don't tell the whole story, because other than perhaps that Ravens team (and even that is questionable) Brady's teams were always better and the talent carried him.

Like I said, Brady is good but he isn't great or "elite". He's consistently better than average, but nothing outstanding.

God you are a moron.  Thank god you aren't an NFL talent evaluator. 

I'm not a Brady fan, but bistiza put together the worst anti-Brady arguments together, that I've ever seen.

I'm glad I have him blocked.

I'm not a Brady fan either but you have to recognize what he's done in his career.   Saying he's not a top 3 QB in this era is just plain stupid.   Regardless of system or surrounding talent, the QB still has to make the throws.  I'd say Brady has done a pretty solid job in doing that.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/16/2013 3:02:00 PM (view original):
All I'm saying is many of the players we're mentioning started in the same place.   A place determined by the guys that get paid a lot to determine that place.  They miss on some(Brady/Leaf/Russell) but they hit on most.    It just seems insane to think they missed on the players on the Saints/Colts but nailed the ones the Patriots got.

I do think the slot guys were not part of the NFL system until Martz made 3-4 WR sets part of the "normal" NFL.    So it probably took awhile for the Welkers of the world to gain a foothold. Which is why someone like him could be overlooked and suddenly a star. 

The Pats definitely use Welker to his highest potential.  

I should mention that the 2 major receivers that Brady had for his first 3 Super Bowls (aside from Deion Branch, who was a 2nd round pick), Troy Brown and David Givens, went in the 8th round, and went undrafted.

Much like the players Brees worked with?

I think Colston is more talented than Brown and Givens.  A lot of teams missed on him.  I think Pierre Thomas is also very talented, and better than anyone the Pats have ever had at RB aside from Dillon (and maybe Ridley? too early to tell)

To be honest, I think the Pats drafted some guys too high...Maroney was a high pick, and wasn't very good.  Ben Watson was a 1st round pick, but he certainly didn't play like an elite TE.

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/16/2013 3:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/16/2013 3:02:00 PM (view original):
All I'm saying is many of the players we're mentioning started in the same place.   A place determined by the guys that get paid a lot to determine that place.  They miss on some(Brady/Leaf/Russell) but they hit on most.    It just seems insane to think they missed on the players on the Saints/Colts but nailed the ones the Patriots got.

I do think the slot guys were not part of the NFL system until Martz made 3-4 WR sets part of the "normal" NFL.    So it probably took awhile for the Welkers of the world to gain a foothold. Which is why someone like him could be overlooked and suddenly a star. 

The Pats definitely use Welker to his highest potential.  

I should mention that the 2 major receivers that Brady had for his first 3 Super Bowls (aside from Deion Branch, who was a 2nd round pick), Troy Brown and David Givens, went in the 8th round, and went undrafted.

But it's not like Brady elevated these guys to star status and the Pats were an elite offensive team like the Colts and Saints back then.  The Pats were no where near the offensive team they are now in their Super Bowl years.   Even conceding that for a period of his career he had less offensive talent around him than many elite QBs, that doesn't really mean he did more with less, it could just mean the rest of his team was better.

Let's remember, when Brady was winning Super Bowls, the Brady v. Manning debate was all about stats (Manning) vs. winning (Brady) because Brady wasn't putting anywhere near the numbers up.  Once Moss/Welker arrived, Brady really closed up the stats debate.

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/16/2013 3:28:00 PM (view original):
I think Colston is more talented than Brown and Givens.  A lot of teams missed on him.  I think Pierre Thomas is also very talented, and better than anyone the Pats have ever had at RB aside from Dillon (and maybe Ridley? too early to tell)

To be honest, I think the Pats drafted some guys too high...Maroney was a high pick, and wasn't very good.  Ben Watson was a 1st round pick, but he certainly didn't play like an elite TE.

Isn't it much easier to evaluate talent after the fact?

Colston was missed by 32 teams for at least 6 rounds.   Some others even missed him 7 times.   Everyone missed on Thomas for 7 rounds.

Posted by AlCheez on 1/16/2013 3:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/16/2013 3:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/16/2013 3:02:00 PM (view original):
All I'm saying is many of the players we're mentioning started in the same place.   A place determined by the guys that get paid a lot to determine that place.  They miss on some(Brady/Leaf/Russell) but they hit on most.    It just seems insane to think they missed on the players on the Saints/Colts but nailed the ones the Patriots got.

I do think the slot guys were not part of the NFL system until Martz made 3-4 WR sets part of the "normal" NFL.    So it probably took awhile for the Welkers of the world to gain a foothold. Which is why someone like him could be overlooked and suddenly a star. 

The Pats definitely use Welker to his highest potential.  

I should mention that the 2 major receivers that Brady had for his first 3 Super Bowls (aside from Deion Branch, who was a 2nd round pick), Troy Brown and David Givens, went in the 8th round, and went undrafted.

But it's not like Brady elevated these guys to star status and the Pats were an elite offensive team like the Colts and Saints back then.  The Pats were no where near the offensive team they are now in their Super Bowl years.   Even conceding that for a period of his career he had less offensive talent around him than many elite QBs, that doesn't really mean he did more with less, it could just mean the rest of his team was better.

Let's remember, when Brady was winning Super Bowls, the Brady v. Manning debate was all about stats (Manning) vs. winning (Brady) because Brady wasn't putting anywhere near the numbers up.  Once Moss/Welker arrived, Brady really closed up the stats debate.

Before the first Welker/Moss season, Brady had a QB rating of 88.4, 2 to 1 TD/INT ratio, completed 62% of his passes, and averaged 225 yards per game. Peyton for his career, has a QB rating of 95.7, had a TD/INT ratio of just over 2 to 1, completed 65% of his passes, and averaged 265 yards per game.  Brady really wasn't too far off.  Once Brady got Moss, and since then has had weapons, he's been much better than he was, and even better than Peyton stat-wise.  

And the original argument was that Brady was overrated.  Brady put up great numbers without the weapons, and won 3 Super Bowls.

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/16/2013 3:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by AlCheez on 1/16/2013 3:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/16/2013 3:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/16/2013 3:02:00 PM (view original):
All I'm saying is many of the players we're mentioning started in the same place.   A place determined by the guys that get paid a lot to determine that place.  They miss on some(Brady/Leaf/Russell) but they hit on most.    It just seems insane to think they missed on the players on the Saints/Colts but nailed the ones the Patriots got.

I do think the slot guys were not part of the NFL system until Martz made 3-4 WR sets part of the "normal" NFL.    So it probably took awhile for the Welkers of the world to gain a foothold. Which is why someone like him could be overlooked and suddenly a star. 

The Pats definitely use Welker to his highest potential.  

I should mention that the 2 major receivers that Brady had for his first 3 Super Bowls (aside from Deion Branch, who was a 2nd round pick), Troy Brown and David Givens, went in the 8th round, and went undrafted.

But it's not like Brady elevated these guys to star status and the Pats were an elite offensive team like the Colts and Saints back then.  The Pats were no where near the offensive team they are now in their Super Bowl years.   Even conceding that for a period of his career he had less offensive talent around him than many elite QBs, that doesn't really mean he did more with less, it could just mean the rest of his team was better.

Let's remember, when Brady was winning Super Bowls, the Brady v. Manning debate was all about stats (Manning) vs. winning (Brady) because Brady wasn't putting anywhere near the numbers up.  Once Moss/Welker arrived, Brady really closed up the stats debate.

Before the first Welker/Moss season, Brady had a QB rating of 88.4, 2 to 1 TD/INT ratio, completed 62% of his passes, and averaged 225 yards per game. Peyton for his career, has a QB rating of 95.7, had a TD/INT ratio of just over 2 to 1, completed 65% of his passes, and averaged 265 yards per game.  Brady really wasn't too far off.  Once Brady got Moss, and since then has had weapons, he's been much better than he was, and even better than Peyton stat-wise.  

And the original argument was that Brady was overrated.  Brady put up great numbers without the weapons, and won 3 Super Bowls.

And hasn't won a Super Bowl... so, evidently he ACTUALLY got worse despite all appearance being that he's been better?

I'm mainly just poking with that line of reasoning.  And I'm certainly not arguing that Brady is overrated, just responding to pieces of your counter that I think go too far.

There are certainly times my arguments go a little too far. He lead his team to 3 Super Bowls, and he had very good defenses on those teams.

He probably should have won a 4th, as he led a game winning drive against the Giants in 2007, and his D really didn't get the job done after that.  And there was a little luck involved too.

The defense gave up 17 points.  An offense that scored almost 600 points in the regular season put 14, even with that drive.  I know how that game played out, but that one's one the offense, no matter how you slice it.  (And of course, lots of credit for that goes to the NYG defense, but still)

Posted by burnsy483 on 1/16/2013 2:38:00 PM (view original):
Mike-

The replies are getting a little long, so I'll try to hit the points here.  

Who would you rather have as weapons:

Wayne/Garcon/Brown and Addai splitting carries (I'm looking at 2010...Clark was there until 2009 btw)
Branch/David Patten/Troy Brown/Faulk and Maroney

And yea, I feel I can watch a game and notice who's better.  I watched Brandon Jacobs split time with Ahmad Bradshaw with the Giants and wanted to pull my hair out because Bradshaw had talent and Jacobs had become crap on ice.

Maroney and Patten were never on the same team.

Posted by AlCheez on 1/16/2013 4:13:00 PM (view original):
The defense gave up 17 points.  An offense that scored almost 600 points in the regular season put 14, even with that drive.  I know how that game played out, but that one's one the offense, no matter how you slice it.  (And of course, lots of credit for that goes to the NYG defense, but still)

And what's really odd is that they played to a 38-35 slug fest to close the regular season.  A few weeks later and they are playing one of the most boring Super Bowls through 3 quarters ever.

Posted by AlCheez on 1/16/2013 4:13:00 PM (view original):
The defense gave up 17 points.  An offense that scored almost 600 points in the regular season put 14, even with that drive.  I know how that game played out, but that one's one the offense, no matter how you slice it.  (And of course, lots of credit for that goes to the NYG defense, but still)

OK.  Then he was on a team that went 18-0 and put up record-setting offensive numbers.  It was the first team in which Brady had great talent at the WR position.  And yes, give the Giants credit, they played insane defense that night.