7/12/2013 11:27 PM
I agree with most of what billyg has to say, except that I have no problem with the firing. Yes expectations and context should matter, but no, 7 seasons straight without at least a PIT bid isn't good enough. No offense to bfunk (I've never interacted with him to my knowledge) or anyone else, but give me the shittiest team on the planet and I guarantee we will make the postseason at least once in 7 years. I don't have a problem with this being a bare minimum requirement for D 1 employment...
7/13/2013 2:09 PM
Posted by coach_billyg on 7/12/2013 9:18:00 PM (view original):
llama, i think that is not the case - its almost definitely the logic working as intended. we know that 7 straight no-post season seasons is one of the major things that can get you kicked out. that is what happened to bfunk. the problem all goes back to one of the great flaws in HD, in firings, jobs, etc - its that performance is looked at almost absolutely, WITHOUT CONTEXT. which is just going to be total ****, obviously, context is everything. the problem is 6 seasons no post season at UK or UNC wont get you fired, the 7th will (there are other ways to get fired, but thats one, and if you miss the first 7 seasons i think thats a guaranteed firing), while the 7th also will at any random **** d1 school there is. so to us, its dead obvious, from the context, that 4 PITs and no NTs in over 20 seasons at a big 6 school (with only 1 season past PIT1 - yikes!!) is worse than 7 no post season seasons when you take a pure **** school over and get still manage to get their prestige up. i mean come on. bfunk shouldnt have had the same standard, first 7 seasons no post season = fired, that UK has. he took over a simAI school in god awful shape, and improved them - i am actually against this firing, i really dont like it, because d1 is so tough now, you should give coaches more time, especially when you pick up a god awful program and get the prestige up! 

i guess i should stop rambling now. its just so ridiculous that context doesn't play a role in the discussion. context is everything. same problem exists where a big 6 coach takes over a great program, runs them into the ground, coasting to mostly NT appearances on the way down - and hes more qualified than the guy who took a total **** school, fought tooth and nail to make the NT most of the seasons, and just has a very slightly worse post season resume. one guy did something highly respectable, the other destroyed a program. i cant imagine this will get fixed though - seble's key weakness is lack of context, IMO. his "fix" to make d1 resumes over 10 seasons made some progress, but because of lack of context, i think that change was substantially flawed, as it made it even harder for low d1 coaches to move up to BCS programs.
 
I agree entirely, I would add seble's weakness is his lack of doing anything anymore and just coasting himself (tongue in cheek but maybe that's why the logic rewards laziness, a reflection of the programmer)
7/14/2013 12:26 AM
Posted by dcy0827 on 7/12/2013 4:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by stinenavy on 7/12/2013 3:53:00 AM (view original):
George Washington Tark


Season Coach Overall
W-L
Home
W-L
Road
W-L
Neutral
W-L
Conf
W-L
Rank RPI SOS Prestige Notes
81 bfunk 9-18 5-9 4-8 0-1 3-13   278 272 D+  
80 bfunk 14-14 8-6 5-7 1-1 5-11   174 184 D+  
79 bfunk 12-15 6-7 6-7 0-1 5-11   200 208 D  
78 bfunk 11-17 7-8 3-8 1-1 5-11   209 155 D  
77 bfunk 6-22 3-11 2-10 1-1 1-15   273 165 D  
76 bfunk 4-23 1-12 3-10 0-1 0-16   271 138 D  
75 bfunk 0-27 0-13 0-13 0-1 0-16   308 137 D
Five straight seasons of improvement, a prestige raise, then one step back and he's canned?  Seems a bit harsh when compared to some of the other resumes posted in this thread that managed to keep their jobs.
This isn't just losing seasons ... it's losing seasons vs. really bad schedules, with poor RPIs. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison with a couple of the BCS resumes that were posted.

Now, quite honestly, I think they all deserved to get canned. I agree with dac -- one postseason in seven years should be something you can literally fall *** backwards into.

That said, it is different posting these kinds of records vs. bad schedules in a mostly sim conference with a mostly sim non-con. That is a whole separate level of suckitude. (Sorry, no offense meant to the dearly departed.)

8/14/2013 1:20 PM
Another firing in Tark this cycle, at a BCS school, even --- Cincinnati:

82 mlatsko1 9-18 5-11 4-6 0-1 3-13   227 150 C-  
81 mlatsko1 7-20 7-10 0-9 0-1 1-15   207 53 C  
80 mlatsko1 4-23 2-13 2-9 0-1 2-14   229 65 C  
79 mlatsko1 18-10 15-3 2-6 1-1 7-9   143 180 C  
78 mlatsko1 11-16 9-8 2-7 0-1 2-14   198 123 C  
77 mlatsko1 7-20 2-10 5-9 0-1 4-12   142 29 C+  
76 mlatsko1 13-14 8-8 5-5 0-1 5-11   167 112 C+  
75 mlatsko1 15-13 10-6 4-6 1-1 5-11   97 69 C+  
74 mlatsko1 8-19 4-12 4-6 0-1 3-13   166 53 C+  
73 mlatsko1 1-26 0-14 1-11 0-1 0-16   208 10 B-  
72 Sim AI 7-20 5-10 2-9 0-1 2-14   138 5 B  
71 Sim AI 9-20 7-7 1-12 1-1 4-12   90 1 B PI (1st Round)


8/14/2013 5:17 PM
FWIW, my Va Tech team got an e-mail which I interpreted as meaning I had to make the post-season this year or get fired.  If I don't make it, it will be my 4th season in a row without a post-season.  Certainly can't/won't complain if I get fired (would have expected it to happen already).  Just posting because it will go against the 7 seasons no post-season discussion above.  Having an above avg year so far for me at Va Tech so may sneak into the PIT and make it moot but I generally get hammered in conference play so expect a precipitous drop coming up.  

School link:  http://wisjournal.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=13070

E-mail:   I just got back from my meeting with Peter Williamson and he isn't happy with the basketball program. He thinks it might be time for us to move in another direction, but I convinced him to give you one more season to turn things around. I'll be honest with you, if you don't have a very successful season next year, I'm going to have to follow his advice. Do you think you could get us back to the tourney and take some of the heat off of both of us?
8/15/2013 11:36 AM
Posted by dukenilnil on 8/14/2013 5:18:00 PM (view original):
FWIW, my Va Tech team got an e-mail which I interpreted as meaning I had to make the post-season this year or get fired.  If I don't make it, it will be my 4th season in a row without a post-season.  Certainly can't/won't complain if I get fired (would have expected it to happen already).  Just posting because it will go against the 7 seasons no post-season discussion above.  Having an above avg year so far for me at Va Tech so may sneak into the PIT and make it moot but I generally get hammered in conference play so expect a precipitous drop coming up.  

School link:  http://wisjournal.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=13070

E-mail:   I just got back from my meeting with Peter Williamson and he isn't happy with the basketball program. He thinks it might be time for us to move in another direction, but I convinced him to give you one more season to turn things around. I'll be honest with you, if you don't have a very successful season next year, I'm going to have to follow his advice. Do you think you could get us back to the tourney and take some of the heat off of both of us?
the 7 no post season thing is from the start of your career... you cant get fired in 6. 
8/16/2013 10:28 AM
OK, this is the first I am hearing of the "7 years & no postseason = auto firing" thing. I don't think that's true, is it? Actually- look at mlatsko at Cincinatti- it took him 10 seasons with no postseaon to get fired.

 I also have to take a little issue with making the postseason in 7 years is something anyone should be able to do. Take a look at me at Lehigh in Tark http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=11921). Now, I don't want to claim I am awesome at this game or anything, but I've been around the block once or twice.  Lehigh was one of the worst programs in D1 when I took over (8 wins total in the 3 years prior to my arrival). Now, I know I screwed the pooch this last year- which was really frustrating, however- I feel like Season 80 was overacheiving, but I still didn't make the postseason. I feel like this past season was my first legitimate chance to make the postseason and either I screwed it up or I got unlucky (or most likely a combination of the two). And now I've had that core group of players graduating. So what you guys are saying is that I totally suck if I don't make the postseason in the next two years? I agree with billyg that context is everything. I would say that by season 8 or 9, if I still haven't made the postseason- I have definitely failed, however- the implication that you can just luck into a postseason appearence in 7 years at one of the really crappy D1 schools seems a little short-sighted to me.

82 noleaniml 15-12 6-6 9-5 0-1 7-9   150 191 D+  
81 noleaniml 9-18 7-6 2-11 0-1 7-9   226 148 D  
80 noleaniml 20-7 13-1 7-5 0-1 12-4   118 259 D  
79 noleaniml 12-15 5-9 7-5 0-1 7-9   238 278 D-  
78 noleaniml 15-13 6-8 8-4 1-1 8-8   181 238 D-  
77 Sim AI 7-20 4-10 3-9 0-1 2-14   310 321 D-  
76 Sim AI 5-23 3-10 1-12 1-1 1-15   296 227 D-  
75 Sim AI 1-26 1-11 0-14 0-1 0-16   302 138 D-  
74 Sim AI 10-17 3-11 7-5 0-1 6-10   224 219 D-  
73 Sim AI 11-17 5-8 5-8 1-1 5-11   242 275 D-  
72 Sim AI 7-20 4-9 3-10 0-1 4-12   277 208 D-  
71 Sim AI 10-18 5-9 4-8 1-1 4-12   253 237 D-  
70 Sim AI 11-17 6-8 4-8 1-1 7-9   211 181 D-  
69 Sim AI 5-22 0-12 5-9 0-1 3-13   268 169 D-
8/16/2013 1:35 PM
noleaniml - its not 7 seasons = auto firing, its that you CANT get fired for less. thats the minimum threshold (from the time you take over). as you have pointed out, it can take longer. i am firmly in the camp that 7 seasons at a mid major without a post season doesnt necessarily warrant a firing (in fact id rarely if ever fire at that level, unless its a serious/full mid major conference), so i think we are on the same page there. and im not sure anyone else is saying you suck if you dont make the post season the next two seasons - most of us look as a d- to d+ progression as decent progress, worthy of more time. but not all of us :) i cant speak for everyone :) anyway i think if you look at the 7 season comments as a minimum firing standard, not a maximum firing standard, what everyone else is saying is more in line (albeit not perfectly in line) with what you are saying.
8/16/2013 2:04 PM (edited)
Posted by noleaniml on 8/16/2013 10:29:00 AM (view original):
OK, this is the first I am hearing of the "7 years & no postseason = auto firing" thing. I don't think that's true, is it? Actually- look at mlatsko at Cincinatti- it took him 10 seasons with no postseaon to get fired.

 I also have to take a little issue with making the postseason in 7 years is something anyone should be able to do. Take a look at me at Lehigh in Tark http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=11921). Now, I don't want to claim I am awesome at this game or anything, but I've been around the block once or twice.  Lehigh was one of the worst programs in D1 when I took over (8 wins total in the 3 years prior to my arrival). Now, I know I screwed the pooch this last year- which was really frustrating, however- I feel like Season 80 was overacheiving, but I still didn't make the postseason. I feel like this past season was my first legitimate chance to make the postseason and either I screwed it up or I got unlucky (or most likely a combination of the two). And now I've had that core group of players graduating. So what you guys are saying is that I totally suck if I don't make the postseason in the next two years? I agree with billyg that context is everything. I would say that by season 8 or 9, if I still haven't made the postseason- I have definitely failed, however- the implication that you can just luck into a postseason appearence in 7 years at one of the really crappy D1 schools seems a little short-sighted to me.

82 noleaniml 15-12 6-6 9-5 0-1 7-9   150 191 D+  
81 noleaniml 9-18 7-6 2-11 0-1 7-9   226 148 D  
80 noleaniml 20-7 13-1 7-5 0-1 12-4   118 259 D  
79 noleaniml 12-15 5-9 7-5 0-1 7-9   238 278 D-  
78 noleaniml 15-13 6-8 8-4 1-1 8-8   181 238 D-  
77 Sim AI 7-20 4-10 3-9 0-1 2-14   310 321 D-  
76 Sim AI 5-23 3-10 1-12 1-1 1-15   296 227 D-  
75 Sim AI 1-26 1-11 0-14 0-1 0-16   302 138 D-  
74 Sim AI 10-17 3-11 7-5 0-1 6-10   224 219 D-  
73 Sim AI 11-17 5-8 5-8 1-1 5-11   242 275 D-  
72 Sim AI 7-20 4-9 3-10 0-1 4-12   277 208 D-  
71 Sim AI 10-18 5-9 4-8 1-1 4-12   253 237 D-  
70 Sim AI 11-17 6-8 4-8 1-1 7-9   211 181 D-  
69 Sim AI 5-22 0-12 5-9 0-1 3-13   268 169 D-
A couple of things...

I was the one that said something similar to that (although I don't think luck has anything to do with it). I don't/haven't always stuck around either 7 years or until we made the playoffs at every D1 job I've taken, so I can't prove my case definitively, but I did go over all my resumes from all worlds to see how I stand up to my own claim (which was - 7 seasons straight without at least a PIT bid isn't good enough. No offense to . . . anyone, but give me the shittiest team on the planet and I guarantee we will make the postseason at least once in 7 years. I don't have a problem with this being a bare minimum requirement for D 1 employment...)

Knight, S 28 - Southern Utah. (D- when hired, D- when left) I only spent 1 season here. I recruited 4 players that SIMAI took to the PIT 2 seasons later. (SIMAI had not been in the playoffs the previous 24 seasons, and wouldn't be again for the next 7 when a human took over...)
Knight, S 55-58 - Louisville. (C+/B-)Saw a whole class through. Made the PIT our 2nd yr. Previous human had not been in playoffs for previous 10, school not for previous 15. 
Rupp, S 50-62 - Central Florida. (C/B+) Part of girt's CUSA revolution. In S 45 aberwager had the Knights in the title game. His players were all gone when I arrived. We made the NT season 4, won the CT season 5, and overall in my 13 seasons we made 9 NT and 1 PIT.
Rupp, S 63-pres - Michigan State. (B+/B+) Made the PIT in season 4, NT 2nd rd in season 5.
Tark, S 70-74 - Colorado. (C/C+). 2 seasons from gillispie coasting out a season after being forced to switch schools, coming off a SIMAI 7-20. PIT seasons 2, 3, 4. 
Tark, S 52-68 - Alabama. (C+/B+).  PIT seasons 2, 3, 5, 8, 9, 12, 14; NT every other season except the first, which was no postseason. 
Tark, S 47-51 - Elon. (D/B-). 8 seasons from last postseason (PIT 1st rd). NT seasons 3, 4, 5. 
Phelan, S 58-60 - S. Carolina St. (D-/D+).  Did not make post-season in my 3 years. So far SIMAI hasn't with my recruits either in 2 chances, though they did win their half of the conference 2 seasons ago and improve to a C-. 
Phelan, S 50-54  - Rutgers. (D+/C+). No postseason prior 7. 0-27 my first year. NT season 4. 
Phelan, S 49 - Florida. (C+/C-). Only 1 season. Don't want to claim too much credit for anything, as my successor is a good coach, but a team with 6 of my recruits and 6 of his went NT 2nd in S 52. 
Phelan, S 41-46 - Marquette. (C-/B). No post season prior 7. NT seasons 4, 6, 7, 8. 
Wooden S 46-47 - Jackson St. (C+/C). PIT for SIMAI prior season, human coached 2 seasons prior with postseason about 3 out of every 4 seasons. NT 1st season. (Can't see roster makeup as I don't currently have a Wooden team.)

So a couple of them are really too short to count, and I didn't bother to list the 2 new schools I just took over this and last season respectively in Richmond (Tark) and Columbia (Phelan) since I haven't been there very long and we haven't made the postseason yet at either. Now, I think of myself as a slightly above average player, and I haven't had much trouble finding the postseason at least every 7 years. In fact, its never taken me more than 4. That's why I don't think 7 is unreasonable. Maybe I'm a bit better than I give myself credit for, in which case this probably reads as me just being a dick, but really that's not how I see myself, but if I am underrating myself than perhaps my logic would be flawed, but really, for whatever reason, even if that reason is someone just isn't good enough, then I'm ok with them not coaching in D1 if they can't hit this minimum. Hope I didn't offend you, just trying give some facts for my POV. 

ETA: To encompass what gillispie mentioned - I'm not saying they have to be fired if they don't make the post-season in 7, I'm saying that I'm good with it being the minimum threshold where its possible...




8/16/2013 9:23 PM (edited)
Dacj, you didn't offend me at all. I make no bones about the fact that I've got a lot yet to learn about this game. Some of it is desire too, I don't think I'll ever commit the amount of time to this game that the really good coaches do. That being said, the only two comparables I see are Southern Utah and S Carolina St. The last thing I want to do is compare resumes and I am willing to concede you are likely better than me, however- when you look at those two the field is a little more level. However, my misunderstanding of the 7 year "rule" caused me to misinterpret exactly what was being said. At the end of the day, I'll personally be disappointed if I don't make it in Year 7, but I don't think it would cause me to think I suck at this game.


Doh, I glanced right over Elon, fantastic job there.
8/19/2013 10:45 PM
Is this what the season before a firing looks like?

Coach,

I just checked out Firewvufan76.com and I'm beginning to agree with them! Donations are down and I'm tired of answering angry e-mails from influential boosters. This is NOT a game, this is your job that we're talking about!Either win next season or I may be forced to make a decision I don't want to make.

Richard Bradshaw
Athletics Director

62

wvufan76

16-13

7-10

7-2

2-1

10-6

 

173

167

C

 

61

wvufan76

9-18

6-7

3-10

0-1

6-10

 

189

91

C

 

60

wvufan76

23-6

13-2

9-3

1-1

13-3

 

81

199

C

PI (1st Round)

59

wvufan76

17-13

8-6

6-6

3-1

7-9

 

111

106

C-

 

58

wvufan76

9-18

3-10

6-7

0-1

3-13

 

182

112

D+

 

57

wvufan76

6-21

5-9

1-11

0-1

4-12

 

266

135

D+

 

56

wvufan76

10-17

6-6

4-10

0-1

4-12

 

158

75

C-

 

8/19/2013 11:08 PM
Are you "in jeopardy"?
8/20/2013 7:46 AM
Yes, am in between my first and second season  of being in jeopardy.  I am either going to return to see if I get fired, or go to one of the really poor programs, or even return to the D2 ranks.
8/20/2013 9:11 AM
I don't understand why that record would deserve firing, since 3 of the last 4 years you have had winning seasons. 
8/20/2013 10:20 AM
me either, it's not like he's at an elite, or even a Big 6 school. GW is decent, but not Georgetown.      
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