6/30/2013 5:05 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 6/29/2013 9:37:00 PM (view original):
Does it seem odd to you that some people might have such a bizarre idea of "family" (mom, dad, kids)?  Does it make you feel uncomfortable?
If that's your only definition? Uncomfortable, I suppose. But I'd other adjectives before I got to that word.
6/30/2013 5:18 PM
Posted by deathinahole on 6/30/2013 3:42:00 PM (view original):
Seriously. You don't give a **** about kids, so it's not that. Marriage, you did it because the wife wanted it, so it's not that. You are not particularly religious, so it's not that.

Just say you don't like gay people. What's wrong with admitting it? It won't be popular, bit at least you could stop the bullshit justification.
LOL.

I know gay people.   But, to me, they're just people.  However, I must admit, none are clamoring to get married or raise children.    So, in my limited experience, I'm wondering why it's such a big deal.   And why, to non-gays, it seems to be a bigger deal. 
6/30/2013 5:22 PM
I'll answer my own ******* question(despite the lack of the ?).

Because some people need to feel good about themselves over something that has no bearing on their life.    I'm as guilty as anyone else.   I'm an "animal" guy.  I hate Mike Vick.  I hate anyone who "understands" Mike Vick.  The only charity I give to is the local animal society.   It makes me feel good to help animals and to despise those that say "They're just dogs". 
6/30/2013 5:26 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 6/30/2013 5:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/30/2013 3:42:00 PM (view original):
What do you think are the odds it's worse to grow up in a gay family than a (more likely several) foster family/ies?  There is a decent body of statistics that suggests that children raised by same-sex parents are slightly MORE likely to graduate from college and LESS likely to go to jail than children raised by opposite-sex parents or children raised by single parents.  I do believe those statistics are skewed.  The portion of society most likely to go to jail and least likely to graduate from college - people from inner cities - vote Democrat when they bother to vote, but it's one of the most homophobic environments in the country, and very few inner city same-sex couples exist.  So that's gonna tend to depress crime rates and improve college stats.  But I'm willing to bet that the harms of being raised by a same-sex couple are small relative to the harms of growing up in the foster system, yes.  Absolutely.
I'll give you this . . . the foster system in this country is ****** up.  Many people are into the foster parent thing less for the betterment of the kids, and more to collect the state issued benefits for themselves.  Basically, it's a variation of the "welfare queen".

The adoption system in this country is also ****** up in that there is so much red tape that qualified potential adoptive parents are often passed over, which is why you see so many adoptive parents going oversees (Russia, China) to adopt rather than adopting here at home.  Basically, because they are given little choice but to do so.

Fix the adoption problem in the U.S., and you'll have less children needing to go into foster care.

Fix the foster system to weed out the "foster queens", and those kids who do go into the foster system will have better experiences.

Neither of these things have to do per se with SS vs. OS couples, but since you seem to want to bring the conversation to adoption vs. foster care, I thought I'd bring it up.
This is the argument that the homophobes always ultimately fall back on, so I'm really surprised it took this long to come up.  But the reality is there IS no good way to fix the foster system.  You can make adoption easier, but it's hard because of the potential for litigation.  I think it's possible, and should be done.  But even so I don't think there are enough potential adoptive parents to cover the demand right now.  And you still haven't addressed the fact that we still allow single parents to keep their children, and I firmly believe that a same-sex couple is a better parenting unit than a single parent.
6/30/2013 5:27 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/30/2013 5:22:00 PM (view original):
I'll answer my own ******* question(despite the lack of the ?).

Because some people need to feel good about themselves over something that has no bearing on their life.    I'm as guilty as anyone else.   I'm an "animal" guy.  I hate Mike Vick.  I hate anyone who "understands" Mike Vick.  The only charity I give to is the local animal society.   It makes me feel good to help animals and to despise those that say "They're just dogs". 
Would you allow gay people to adopt dogs?
6/30/2013 5:29 PM
I'd argue it's not as important to "non-gays."

To answer your question, your friends and family being happy makes you happy. The straight people who care probably know a gay person who also cares.
6/30/2013 5:38 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 6/30/2013 5:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 6/30/2013 3:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/30/2013 2:22:00 PM (view original):
My point is: just because "A" is better than "B", that doesn't necessarily make "A" a good or desirable thing.
But if A is an improvement over B, then why not choose A over B?

Because B is happening anyway.
Because there may be far better options than A.
A gay couple is raising a child. As far as I can see there are only two options, the couple can be married or not.

What are the "far better options" that you see?
6/30/2013 5:40 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/30/2013 5:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 6/30/2013 5:22:00 PM (view original):
I'll answer my own ******* question(despite the lack of the ?).

Because some people need to feel good about themselves over something that has no bearing on their life.    I'm as guilty as anyone else.   I'm an "animal" guy.  I hate Mike Vick.  I hate anyone who "understands" Mike Vick.  The only charity I give to is the local animal society.   It makes me feel good to help animals and to despise those that say "They're just dogs". 
Would you allow gay people to adopt dogs?
Depends.  There are a lot of straight people who shouldn't be allowed to have dogs(or kids).    Just because you want one(dog/kid) doesn't mean you should get one.
6/30/2013 5:46 PM
Well I agree with you on that, at least the part where they won't be GOOD at having things, although the implications on personal freedoms of saying they shouldn't be allowed to is actually a little scary to me.  Seems innocuous, but potentially isn't...
6/30/2013 6:32 PM (edited)
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/30/2013 5:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/30/2013 5:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/30/2013 3:42:00 PM (view original):
What do you think are the odds it's worse to grow up in a gay family than a (more likely several) foster family/ies?  There is a decent body of statistics that suggests that children raised by same-sex parents are slightly MORE likely to graduate from college and LESS likely to go to jail than children raised by opposite-sex parents or children raised by single parents.  I do believe those statistics are skewed.  The portion of society most likely to go to jail and least likely to graduate from college - people from inner cities - vote Democrat when they bother to vote, but it's one of the most homophobic environments in the country, and very few inner city same-sex couples exist.  So that's gonna tend to depress crime rates and improve college stats.  But I'm willing to bet that the harms of being raised by a same-sex couple are small relative to the harms of growing up in the foster system, yes.  Absolutely.
I'll give you this . . . the foster system in this country is ****** up.  Many people are into the foster parent thing less for the betterment of the kids, and more to collect the state issued benefits for themselves.  Basically, it's a variation of the "welfare queen".

The adoption system in this country is also ****** up in that there is so much red tape that qualified potential adoptive parents are often passed over, which is why you see so many adoptive parents going oversees (Russia, China) to adopt rather than adopting here at home.  Basically, because they are given little choice but to do so.

Fix the adoption problem in the U.S., and you'll have less children needing to go into foster care.

Fix the foster system to weed out the "foster queens", and those kids who do go into the foster system will have better experiences.

Neither of these things have to do per se with SS vs. OS couples, but since you seem to want to bring the conversation to adoption vs. foster care, I thought I'd bring it up.
This is the argument that the homophobes always ultimately fall back on, so I'm really surprised it took this long to come up.  But the reality is there IS no good way to fix the foster system.  You can make adoption easier, but it's hard because of the potential for litigation.  I think it's possible, and should be done.  But even so I don't think there are enough potential adoptive parents to cover the demand right now.  And you still haven't addressed the fact that we still allow single parents to keep their children, and I firmly believe that a same-sex couple is a better parenting unit than a single parent.
This is the argument that the homophobes always ultimately fall back on, so I'm really surprised it took this long to come up.

How the hell is a comment about the problems with the adoption system and foster care system in this country "homophobic"?

And you still haven't addressed the fact that we still allow single parents to keep their children, and I firmly believe that a same-sex couple is a better parenting unit than a single parent.


Are you suggesting that children be taken away from single parents and given to SS couples?

If not, then please explain what the point of that comment is.
6/30/2013 6:30 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 6/30/2013 5:38:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/30/2013 5:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 6/30/2013 3:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 6/30/2013 2:22:00 PM (view original):
My point is: just because "A" is better than "B", that doesn't necessarily make "A" a good or desirable thing.
But if A is an improvement over B, then why not choose A over B?

Because B is happening anyway.
Because there may be far better options than A.
A gay couple is raising a child. As far as I can see there are only two options, the couple can be married or not.

What are the "far better options" that you see?
The gay couples should not have been given the child to begin with.  Why couldn't the child have been given to a worthy and desiring OS couple?
6/30/2013 6:38 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 6/30/2013 5:46:00 PM (view original):
Well I agree with you on that, at least the part where they won't be GOOD at having things, although the implications on personal freedoms of saying they shouldn't be allowed to is actually a little scary to me.  Seems innocuous, but potentially isn't...
This is actually the crux of this discussion.   One side is "Let's do it and figure it out later" while the other side is "Let's figure it out and maybe do it later."

I prefer the way of the carpenter.  Measure twice, cut once. 
6/30/2013 6:39 PM
Because there are far less worthy and desiring couples, OS + SS, that want to adopt?
6/30/2013 6:42 PM

And you still haven't addressed the fact that we still allow single parents to keep their children, and I firmly believe that a same-sex couple is a better parenting unit than a single parent.


Are you suggesting that children be taken away from single parents and given to SS couples?

If not, then please explain what the point of that comment is.
Of course not, you and mike are both exceptional at being deliberately obtuse.  The point is that there are already many, MANY children in worse situations than a child adopted by a same-sex couple, and nobody questions the legality of it.  So why does everyone want to challenge the legality of this one particular parental arrangement?  It's because they're personally uncomfortable with homosexuals.  Frankly, if the right people - IE, people perceived to be similarly concerned - question deeply enough, it generally comes out that people are afraid that children raised by homosexual couples will be more likely to be homosexual themselves.  And since they think homosexuals are basically inferior people, that is a problem.

Aside from this latent and ridiculous fear, what specific harms can you think of inherent to being raised by a same-sex couple?
6/30/2013 6:44 PM
Children are not kind.   Being different is an issue.  
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