4/8/2013 10:40 AM
I'm not sure why the government tries to legislate morality and acceptance into society in America.

Let's face it: Most people are, for the most part, NOT good people. They will discriminate and shun anyone who is different than the collective majority, or anyone who takes actions which aren't part of those accepted by the majority. You can try to educate people but you can't legislate a change in how they treat others because it won't work.

4/8/2013 10:42 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/8/2013 10:27:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/8/2013 10:12:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/8/2013 9:56:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/8/2013 9:46:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/5/2013 6:06:00 PM (view original):
Anyway, to answer your question, yeah, openly gay was discriminated against 30 years ago.     Probably more recently than that.   My dead, gay uncle had to leave his small hometown and move to NYC to be openly gay.  That was late 70s.

I don't think gays are discriminated against in the workforce in 98% of the situations.   You'll have homophobes, just like you'll have RACISTS!!!!, but it's not widespread. 
I don't think they are as much now, I think they definitely were then.  Just like "RACISTS!"
So we agree on something?
Yes, people are more open-minded and accepting now than they were then.  

So, in an overwhelming majority of situations today, a gay man(or woman) isn't likely to be discriminated against?

I would guess yes.
4/8/2013 10:44 AM
Posted by bistiza on 4/8/2013 10:40:00 AM (view original):
I'm not sure why the government tries to legislate morality and acceptance into society in America.

Let's face it: Most people are, for the most part, NOT good people. They will discriminate and shun anyone who is different than the collective majority, or anyone who takes actions which aren't part of those accepted by the majority. You can try to educate people but you can't legislate a change in how they treat others because it won't work.

Yes you can.

Yes it can.
4/8/2013 11:18 AM
It just doesn't work, burnsy.

People are who they are, and unless they are educated and/or have a personal epiphany of some sort, they're not going to change and suddenly accept things they once scorned, no matter what laws are enacted or changed.

Overall I think it's foolish for anyone in a government position to have to waste time and energy dealing with matters that are rather trivial - like who can get married - when there are bigger issues which aren't dealt with - like homelessness, hunger, abused and neglected children, etc.

Government should stop ******* around with these trivial matters and start fixing real issues like those. If the liberal mamby-pambys of the world (like the ACLU) would quit with their whining and BS it might get done, but I doubt that will ever happen.

By the way, if all anyone wants to do is flame me because I speak my mind, don't bother - I'm well aware that my opinion on this is not going to be liked by some people, so you don't need to tell me.

4/8/2013 11:26 AM
Is the government capable of doing multiple things at once? God knows they're great at wasting time.

So you don't think that things like the 13th, 14th, 15th, 19th amendments didn't change the thoughts of anyone in this country?  Are you saying the end of slavery, equality for women, etc, would have happened on its own?
4/8/2013 11:27 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/8/2013 10:42:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/8/2013 10:27:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/8/2013 10:12:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/8/2013 9:56:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/8/2013 9:46:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/5/2013 6:06:00 PM (view original):
Anyway, to answer your question, yeah, openly gay was discriminated against 30 years ago.     Probably more recently than that.   My dead, gay uncle had to leave his small hometown and move to NYC to be openly gay.  That was late 70s.

I don't think gays are discriminated against in the workforce in 98% of the situations.   You'll have homophobes, just like you'll have RACISTS!!!!, but it's not widespread. 
I don't think they are as much now, I think they definitely were then.  Just like "RACISTS!"
So we agree on something?
Yes, people are more open-minded and accepting now than they were then.  

So, in an overwhelming majority of situations today, a gay man(or woman) isn't likely to be discriminated against?

I would guess yes.
We do know of one place where gays are discriminated against - the county clerk's office. Let them marry.
4/8/2013 11:32 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 4/8/2013 10:24:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 4/8/2013 9:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 4/8/2013 9:23:00 AM (view original):
You don't get to vote on rights like this. Just like we couldn't vote to take away interracial marriage, we shouldn't be able to vote to take away gay marriage.
It should never have been allowed in the first place.

We're not allowed to undo a wrong?
Why should it have never been allowed?
Page 1 of this thread.  3/28/2013 9:28 PM

Also, page 2.  
3/29/2013 11:11 AM

4/8/2013 11:38 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 4/8/2013 11:32:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 4/8/2013 10:24:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 4/8/2013 9:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 4/8/2013 9:23:00 AM (view original):
You don't get to vote on rights like this. Just like we couldn't vote to take away interracial marriage, we shouldn't be able to vote to take away gay marriage.
It should never have been allowed in the first place.

We're not allowed to undo a wrong?
Why should it have never been allowed?
Page 1 of this thread.  3/28/2013 9:28 PM

Also, page 2.  
3/29/2013 11:11 AM

I think everyone is aware that this changes the definition of marriage.

Why should the change not be allowed?
4/8/2013 11:38 AM
Tec,

I'm not sure what the point if you posting here is if everytime someone challenges you, you shut down.
4/8/2013 11:38 AM
So you don't think that things like the 13th, 14th, 15th, 19th amendments didn't change the thoughts of anyone in this country?  Are you saying the end of slavery, equality for women, etc, would have happened on its own?

I ABSOLUTELY think those things could have happened on their own - and that's the way it should be.  Let me explain further.

I don't think slavery ever should have happened. It's the height of arrogance and ignorance for anyone to think they can "own" anyone else and dictate that this person work for them with little or no compensation. While I could easily argue that it still happens today - if you work a job that you would not work if you didn't need the money, you're at best an endentured servant - it's a completely ridiculous idea from the start.

I think the Europeans who came to America never should have decided to go to Africa and kidnap people and enslave them. It was stupid and wrong and never should have become an issue to begin with, and it's created more problems than anyone can imagine ever since.

As for women's rights, clearly the founding fathers had little concept of this idea either. When they said "all men were created equal", what they REALLY meant was this:

All white, wealthy, land owning men were created equal, and everyone else is beneath them.

It's taken 200 plus years for us to come this far toward true equality, and we'll probably never achieve it no matter what legislation takes place. After all, as I said, no matter how close to a perfect situation you get, a capitalist economy dictates that there will always be people held back by being poor (or at the least, not independently wealthy) and thus these people will be forced into what is effectively endentured servitude by working jobs they would rather not work for people they would probably rather not work for.
4/8/2013 11:44 AM
Treated equally under the law and have equal socioeconomic status are not the same thing.

Everyone deserves to be treated equally under the law. Not everyone deserves a high paying job.
4/8/2013 11:49 AM
Posted by bistiza on 4/8/2013 11:38:00 AM (view original):
So you don't think that things like the 13th, 14th, 15th, 19th amendments didn't change the thoughts of anyone in this country?  Are you saying the end of slavery, equality for women, etc, would have happened on its own?

I ABSOLUTELY think those things could have happened on their own - and that's the way it should be.  Let me explain further.

I don't think slavery ever should have happened. It's the height of arrogance and ignorance for anyone to think they can "own" anyone else and dictate that this person work for them with little or no compensation. While I could easily argue that it still happens today - if you work a job that you would not work if you didn't need the money, you're at best an endentured servant - it's a completely ridiculous idea from the start.

I think the Europeans who came to America never should have decided to go to Africa and kidnap people and enslave them. It was stupid and wrong and never should have become an issue to begin with, and it's created more problems than anyone can imagine ever since.

As for women's rights, clearly the founding fathers had little concept of this idea either. When they said "all men were created equal", what they REALLY meant was this:

All white, wealthy, land owning men were created equal, and everyone else is beneath them.

It's taken 200 plus years for us to come this far toward true equality, and we'll probably never achieve it no matter what legislation takes place. After all, as I said, no matter how close to a perfect situation you get, a capitalist economy dictates that there will always be people held back by being poor (or at the least, not independently wealthy) and thus these people will be forced into what is effectively endentured servitude by working jobs they would rather not work for people they would probably rather not work for.
I would argue that slavery continues for quite some time if there was no law banning it, and most people would not consider African-Americans as "equals", even today had laws not been passed claiming that they deserve equal treatment. 
4/8/2013 11:52 AM
Equality is equality, BL. 

To pick and choose in what ways people are "equal" is not equality at all, but the same water-down BS that causes people's discontent and has for all of human existence.

The fact is the wealthy and the poor are NOT treated equally under the law. Everyone (including lawmakers) caters to the wealthy and their desires, while virtually no one stands up for the poor.

I do agree not everyone deserves a high paying job - in fact, I think a lot of people who have them don't deserve them - but that's not the point.

The point is telling people they are equal doesn't make it so when any thinking person can clearly see the world isn't an equal place. Also, trying to legislate equality doesn't do any good.
4/8/2013 11:58 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/8/2013 10:42:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/8/2013 10:27:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/8/2013 10:12:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/8/2013 9:56:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/8/2013 9:46:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/5/2013 6:06:00 PM (view original):
Anyway, to answer your question, yeah, openly gay was discriminated against 30 years ago.     Probably more recently than that.   My dead, gay uncle had to leave his small hometown and move to NYC to be openly gay.  That was late 70s.

I don't think gays are discriminated against in the workforce in 98% of the situations.   You'll have homophobes, just like you'll have RACISTS!!!!, but it's not widespread. 
I don't think they are as much now, I think they definitely were then.  Just like "RACISTS!"
So we agree on something?
Yes, people are more open-minded and accepting now than they were then.  

So, in an overwhelming majority of situations today, a gay man(or woman) isn't likely to be discriminated against?

I would guess yes.
So, I assume, you think they are discriminated against under the laws of marriage.

I'd argue that it's not so much discrimination as it is carefully moving forward. 
4/8/2013 11:58 AM
I would argue that slavery continues for quite some time if there was no law banning it, and most people would not consider African-Americans as "equals", even today had laws not been passed claiming that they deserve equal treatment.

Slavery was already on the way out by the time Lincoln made his famous proclamation. There was widespread anti-slavery movement, and not just in the north, and it would have continued to grow. The only way it stops is through suppression if the south wins the American civil war, but that wasn't going to happen anyway ( but that's another history lesson).

As for people seeing others as equals, open your eyes - they still don't, or at least, a large contingent of people still don't.

Racism is rampant, including racism against "whites". It's just much more covert than it once was because of education campaigns that made it less than acceptable as part of popular culture.
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