All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > coach_billyg - A Manefesto on 1st Class Usership
4/18/2013 10:05 PM
Posted by girt25 on 4/18/2013 1:25:00 PM (view original):
craigcoug -- You're the most vocal person I've seen here, and if you're really as new to HD as your resume suggests (three games) and it's not an alias, then you're not really qualified to opine. That's not to say that you can't express your opinion -- you can, of course, ad naueseum -- but you don't understand the game, the community, and how it works. Your just not coming from a place of knowledge.

nacho -- I think you are vastly overstating issues that may be present with those who have multiple IDs. You're acting as though anyone with multiple teams/IDs must be cheating, and that it's rampant. I would say that it's almost certainly much, much more the exception than the rule. There are also people that cheat with their friends, with their conference mates, etc -- and that's more common than the multiple ID thing. It's not something that can be effectively policed -- not even close.

So the question is, in order to target some smaller segment of multiple ID users who might be cheating (while plenty of non-multiple ID users are doing the same), do we (a) go back on what everyone has already been promised for quite some time and (b) really anger a lot of long-time users? Again, I have just two teams, both under this ID. But I think it would be a terrible ID that creates way more problems than it solves. And I know people that have been playing HD for a long time that would drop some or all of their other teams because of it.

Bad idea.
Again, I'm not saying that teams with multiple IDs must be and/or are cheating. The upshot of this thread was to point out how a well known user on this site was advocating for certain users to be "grandfathered in" to having multiple accounts, while the majority were excluded from the practice, and at the same time had the gumption to say that this should still be allowed despite the fact that some of these coaches were using them to gain an unfair advantage.

It smacks of a form of tiered usership...in which case I would be proud to be a second class user.


4/18/2013 10:08 PM
Posted by angmar on 4/18/2013 3:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/18/2013 1:44:00 AM (view original):
Posted by teamrc on 4/18/2013 1:24:00 AM (view original):
This thread needs to be removed.
The coaches listed by BillyG don't need defended by anyone.
I haven't said anything about any of those individual coaches, and I'll happily defend some of them.

What's worse, the topic of my thread or billyg name dropping coaches like these then loosely claiming that some of them have been long term cheaters? Because I don't think they'll be too happy. Or maybe we should just remove it altogether because people think the sacred cows are above criticism, and hypothetical rules like one team per world (despite the fact that they probably haven't even seen this thread yet because it's the middle of the night).

Except maybe the part where you referred to the whole lot as a pack of vultures, but besides that, no.
haha, ya, the whole "pack of vultures" thing was just for dramatic effect.
4/18/2013 10:11 PM
Posted by indiansrck27 on 4/18/2013 5:39:00 PM (view original):
holy cow some really dense people out there.

a whole lot of assuming going out there, especially on nacho and craig. 

you get on your high horse rush to conclusions and you just cant seem to accept that  you MIGHT be wrong. 

as someone said, billyg knows every i and out of the game from learning it and thats where his success comes in. lots of people that play have very good analytical abilities which comes in handy in this game. pretty much all the guys billy g listed do if not all. 

so as the old saying goes. dont assume you just make an *** out of you and you. 



another person to miss my point.
4/18/2013 10:20 PM
Posted by coach_billyg on 4/18/2013 6:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kashmir75 on 4/18/2013 2:20:00 AM (view original):
Ok. That's fair enough, if that's your beef, then I understand (now) the point you are aiming at.     I did not take his post in the same way you meant it to be taken because, I took it as a blanket statement, meaning whatever group is chosen to be singled out and eliminated, some cheaters will be caught in the net.

I do not view myself as a cheater, I do not condone cheating in any way, shape or form and I have NEVER used an alias account to unfairly target someones recruits, gain unfair scouting advantage for one team by using the cash of another of my teams. I have never conspired with myself or with another coach in any kind of player auction, or to throw a game, be it regular season, CT, PI, or NT and I have had 2 teams meet in all 4 situations at one time or another in the 6 years I have been a user of this site. It's rare, but you don't get to pick your post season brackets. I don't schedule my same world teams to play each other, even in exhibition. I go to sometimes great lengths to NOT recruit players from ANY same state where another teams players are from, REGARDLESS of where those teams are located OR the state in question. I HAVE on occasion sitemailed a coach to see if a recruit is a priority for them or if he's just a place holder, but those occasions are rare and almost always occur when a coach has more considering than he has spots open. Most times I will simply charge in regardless, or not, as the situation dictates. I can't see anyway to make that example cheating, without a lot more info changing hands and their never is anymore than a "yes he is" or a "no he isn't". On the rare occasion when I get the No answer, I NEVER jump right on, but simply wait and see what happens as things develop. People do change their minds.

But, I also know that people are always going to try to game the system. Whether it's HD or any other game, you have people for whatever reason are always going to be looking for any way to get a leg up on the competition, so I accept that in any group you can pick and eliminate, you will take some cheaters out when you do.

If they eliminate multi accounts in the same world, some will quit, some will stay, and some will find ways around it. IP washers, throw away debit/credit cards, multiple computers, etc.   And I'm positive that some creative soul out there will think of other ways that I can't even imagine at the moment. That's just life and people in general.
the first paragraph sums it up.

im not sure why a couple guys are twisting what i said to such an extent, but i havent always been the clearest person, so maybe some small responsibility is mine (although in this case, i really think people are trying to make a point about something more than actually thinking that is what i meant). to make it clear - i was not saying any of the listed coaches were cheating, nor that any more multiple team in a world coaches cheat than their single team counterparts. also, there was absolutely no admission of guilt, i havent a clue where that came from (well, i have an inkling that it came straight out of someone's ***)
Just to be clear, even though I've already specifically said this several times: I never assumed or thought that any of the coaches you specifically named were engaged in cheating activities. If anything I thought it was wild that you listed users specifically then so nonchalantly made a reference to the certainty of cheating amongst elite coaches in the next paragraph. The people you were name dropping might very well have an issue with that.


4/18/2013 10:37 PM
Posted by coach_billyg on 4/18/2013 6:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dvgagz on 4/18/2013 2:47:00 AM (view original):
I appreciate your thread nachopuzzle. As a relative newbie to HD I initially looked upon those lists of successful coaches with multiple championships and was very impressed. But now after reading the other thread and billyg's comment that has been placed under a magnifying glass from this thread, I'm not sure what to think. Is it mere coincidence that many of the "elite" coaches have multiple accounts in the same world? I would like to believe that many (hopefully all) of these coaches are NOT cheating but unfortunately there is no way to really know.  So how impressed should I really be with their success?  It's like the steroids issue in baseball.  How impressive are the accomplishments of those players knowing there's a possibility they may have used PEDs? 

I agree the whole situation is fubar and only exacerbated by a comment from an elite coach. 

its NOT a coincidence. if you read the other thread, i clearly say multiple times, its not a coincidence. simply put, those who intensely study and analyze this game to the extent it takes to be one of the top coaches, are generally some of the most passionate coaches. those who cannot bear to leave a program behind, and use another ID to pick it up (the most common entry-point to multiple teams in a world), are also generally some of the most passionate coaches. *for those two groups to substantially overlap is exactly what a rational person should expect*

edit: i dont mean to be a dick in this post. but some of my comments here are cherry picked and then twisted beyond recognition. if you go read my actual comments, the ones i made myself, in the proper context - i think it will become abundantly clear just how ridiculous this thread it.
When I quoted you, I gave a completing listing of thread, date, and page that I it came from. Not only did I read that whole thread and all of your comments to make sure that quote could stand on it's own, but the person you are responding to here even says that he took the time to read the whole other thread. Don't say outlandinsh things and maybe people won't  put a spotlight on them, or as you would put it "cherry pick" them.


4/18/2013 10:42 PM
Posted by coach_billyg on 4/18/2013 6:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kevin_w64 on 4/18/2013 12:15:00 PM (view original):
This may be random since I only recently started reading the forums. I do not have multiple teams or any other usernames, and I have been on WIS since 2002. I do not want to believe that everyone with multiple teams is a cheater, but the ability is certainly there.

I personally do not even answer people on the CC until my recruits have signed, but statement like this bothers me. 
"I HAVE on occasion sitemailed a coach to see if a recruit is a priority for them or if he's just a place holder, but those occasions are rare and almost always occur when a coach has more considering than he has spots open."
I am operating under the assumption that this activity is not happening.

As for sharing FSS between teams just read the Tark SEC CC three pages back. The ability is there even if the coach does not act on it. 

I could care less either way. I am going to continue to play, and I do enjoy playing with several of the coaches that are being talked about(All that are in Tark). If you really feel the advantage is that unfair, then you should continue to fight. That is your right as a paying customer. 

having read the tark SEC CC (obviously, as i coach there), im just curious what you are referring to? 

also, where is that quote from, the one about someone sitemailing others?
The quote was from Kashmir something. It is what prompted me to post. I know you have had people sitemail you during recruiting in the past. I have seen the heated exchanges on the CC. To me that is as bad as it gets.

The other comment was a throw in. It pertained to the topic in this thread. On the CC you said that you saw another teams recruit from FSS on one of your other IDs. Whether this is a perceived advantage or not, I could care less. I will continue to play with changes, or without changes.

Also, I will only play on two a day worlds. The others take to long.
4/18/2013 11:11 PM
kevin_w64.........................  So, let me get this straight. A sitemail to another coach that only asks "is recruit x a priority for you or not" To which the reply is only "yes" or "no" is what's now considered collusion?  you feel this to be in some way....cheating or collusive?
4/18/2013 11:13 PM
I've seen people solicit other people's FSS information on coaches' corners before. FWIW
4/18/2013 11:16 PM
Posted by tarvolon on 4/18/2013 11:13:00 PM (view original):
I've seen people solicit other people's FSS information on coaches' corners before. FWIW
haha, talk about being bad at cheating.
4/18/2013 11:27 PM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 4/18/2013 11:48:00 AM (view original):
You know, I really don't care that much.   I think I would prefer if people didn't do it but quite frankly the benefit to cheating is reasonably minimal.    At DI, the % of recruiting money you might save is less than 5%.   Ath D2 and D3 it's different, but recruiting is totally different.  No one is coming across the country to take my recruits.

While there is a benefit to cheating, I think it is reasonably small.

So what were talking about it like 10% of the total population cheating 10% of the time to get a 10% advantage.

I am sure that doesn't sit well with a lot of people but doens't seem worth it to me to **** off the original 10% of people.

Now, the illusion of integrity is important, WIS can't have the perception  that this game is full of hackers and cheaters.   

I see what you're getting at, but I think your highly underestimating the advantage gained from this type of cheating.


4/18/2013 11:30 PM
Posted by kashmir75 on 4/18/2013 11:11:00 PM (view original):
kevin_w64.........................  So, let me get this straight. A sitemail to another coach that only asks "is recruit x a priority for you or not" To which the reply is only "yes" or "no" is what's now considered collusion?  you feel this to be in some way....cheating or collusive?
this is definitely collusion. you are attempting to gain info other coaches don't have access to in order to avoid a battle and save money... yes this is collusion. 
4/18/2013 11:33 PM
For what it's worth, this is the solution I offer for solving the problem of multiple teams, it was originally posted in the "multiple teams in one world" thread (pg. 8), but this post was a reply to a comment by nc2457829305:

Posted by nc2457829305 on 4/17/2013 6:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/17/2013 5:41:00 PM (view original):
I think a very simple way of both deterring sockpuppet accounts and making cheaters more easily identifiable is to disclose recruiting expenditures at the end of each recruiting period. It might be as simple as listing the states purchased in FSS (plus the associated cost) and the amount of money spent to sign each recruit. With this information alone, it would be relatively easy to determine if a coach is engaging in any unsavory recruiting practices. 

I am opposed to this, as it would reveal lots of things about recruiting strategy to rivals. I'd have no problem with this in the case of a complaint... 
If it were possible then some people would be lodging these complaints every time they got poached, and would thus fail to mitigate a large part of the problem. I'm not talking about disclosing each teams itemized  line-by-line recruiting efforts, just the rough numbers I listed above. I'm sure NCAA Division I & II are required to submit detailed accounts of recruiting expenditures, so why not implement that in some limited fashion here if it gets to the heart of issue while causing the least overall change to the game?

It's a win for all three parties: people get to keep their multiple teams, regular users can have the information needed to review recruiting practices, and WIS gets to keep the revenue from users having multiple accounts.

Plus, I don't think it will reveal too many specific insights into a coaches recruiting practices because it won't disclose the money spent of recruits that weren't signed and it won't list how the money on signed recruits was spent (just the total amount).

4/18/2013 11:44 PM
Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/18/2013 10:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by girt25 on 4/18/2013 1:25:00 PM (view original):
craigcoug -- You're the most vocal person I've seen here, and if you're really as new to HD as your resume suggests (three games) and it's not an alias, then you're not really qualified to opine. That's not to say that you can't express your opinion -- you can, of course, ad naueseum -- but you don't understand the game, the community, and how it works. Your just not coming from a place of knowledge.

nacho -- I think you are vastly overstating issues that may be present with those who have multiple IDs. You're acting as though anyone with multiple teams/IDs must be cheating, and that it's rampant. I would say that it's almost certainly much, much more the exception than the rule. There are also people that cheat with their friends, with their conference mates, etc -- and that's more common than the multiple ID thing. It's not something that can be effectively policed -- not even close.

So the question is, in order to target some smaller segment of multiple ID users who might be cheating (while plenty of non-multiple ID users are doing the same), do we (a) go back on what everyone has already been promised for quite some time and (b) really anger a lot of long-time users? Again, I have just two teams, both under this ID. But I think it would be a terrible ID that creates way more problems than it solves. And I know people that have been playing HD for a long time that would drop some or all of their other teams because of it.

Bad idea.
Again, I'm not saying that teams with multiple IDs must be and/or are cheating. The upshot of this thread was to point out how a well known user on this site was advocating for certain users to be "grandfathered in" to having multiple accounts, while the majority were excluded from the practice, and at the same time had the gumption to say that this should still be allowed despite the fact that some of these coaches were using them to gain an unfair advantage.

It smacks of a form of tiered usership...in which case I would be proud to be a second class user.


Nacho, I think you are totally misconstruing what billyg was saying.
4/18/2013 11:50 PM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 4/18/2013 9:24:00 AM (view original):
I am pretty sure the game would survive without 20 owners.
The arrogance of the statement you're referring to absolutely amazed me. I understand using certain phrases for dramatic effect, but saying something like that is pure and unadulterated hubris.


4/18/2013 11:50 PM
Posted by reddyred on 4/18/2013 11:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kashmir75 on 4/18/2013 11:11:00 PM (view original):
kevin_w64.........................  So, let me get this straight. A sitemail to another coach that only asks "is recruit x a priority for you or not" To which the reply is only "yes" or "no" is what's now considered collusion?  you feel this to be in some way....cheating or collusive?
this is definitely collusion. you are attempting to gain info other coaches don't have access to in order to avoid a battle and save money... yes this is collusion. 
Well it appears to me any human contact at all during recruiting is considered collusion.

For the record, I have always approached this from the perspective of a courtesy to the other coach, to inquire, rather than simply pile on as I don't think I've ever seen a recruit who had no equal and I really don't like taking recruits from someone.

But, while we're at it, why isn't it collusive to ask for and receive help from someone?   Are you not benefiting from knowledge that others do not or are not getting? Why is is not considered collusion to ask for advice on how to set your team for the big game? Does the other coach also get information to set up his team?  Do you maybe see that we are splitting the hair very fine these days in what's considered "cheating"?

I can certainly see the potential to be collusive, but I don't think that line was crossed in the sitemail example.

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