All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Nolan Ryan: Thoroughly Average Good Pitcher
7/11/2013 8:15 AM
Well, I certainly don't think WAR says it all.   But, for a statnerd, it speaks volumes.  Which is why I said I doubt statnerds hate Ryan.    Old school "He didn't win games" guys might.
7/11/2013 8:23 AM
Shazbot, nanu nanu threw out a combination of both.
7/11/2013 8:05 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/11/2013 8:15:00 AM (view original):
Well, I certainly don't think WAR says it all.   But, for a statnerd, it speaks volumes.  Which is why I said I doubt statnerds hate Ryan.    Old school "He didn't win games" guys might.
Except, when it comes to WAR, he wasnt all that great.

For all his durability, he compiled less WAR than guys like Mike Mussina and Pedro (9 fewer seasons), Fergie Jenkins and Robin Roberts (8 fewer), Gibson, Perry, Carlton, Blyleven (5 fewer seasons!), Spahn, Mathewson, Randy, Lefty, Maddux, Seaver, Cy Young and Walter Johnson.

Outside of Cy, whose numbers I'm too lazy to check, all of them put up many fewer innings and seasons.

If you go WAR by season, he's gonna fall way far down the list.

Less about quality, more about longevity, than you seem to be saying.
7/11/2013 8:10 PM
Posted by deathinahole on 7/11/2013 8:23:00 AM (view original):
Shazbot, nanu nanu threw out a combination of both.
Second time you'e mentioned this.

Didn't realize I had to restrict my arguments to one camp or the other.

Last I checked this was a free country.

Are you one of them commies?

I just think it says more that by advanced metrics (WAR, ERA+) AND by some conventional metrics (so so WIN%, okay ERA, WHIP) he doesn't reflect well against his peers.

Of course that is mitigated by the exceptional amount of Ks and the otherworldly H/9 he put up.

But perhaps that is true only if you're there for the flash, and forget about the substance.

I think of myself at work. If I produce memos that are EXCEPTIONAL, but only some of the time, and the rest of the time I'm bombing them, so that on average i'm doing just a bit better than average - does that make me the best employee around? Probably not...
7/11/2013 8:16 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/6/2013 5:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deathinahole on 7/4/2013 7:36:00 AM (view original):
There's a reason why this conversation keeps coming up.

Stat nerds seem to have a hard on for him, in terms of trying to tear Ryan down.

Frankly, there are two players in my lifetime where I would plop down money for a ticket just to watch that player; JR Richard and Nolan Ryan.

The simple fact that this keeps coming up over and over again is a testament to how good the Ryan Express was.
Seems to me a statnerd would have no case.

I forget the 'tard that declared FIP to be the best new stat for a pitcher.    Ryan comes out pretty good.
Pedro Martinez - 2.91
Ryan - 2.97
Clemens - 3.05
Randy Johnson - 3.19
Greg Madduz - 3.26

And, of course, his WAR is within range also.
FIP is an effective measure - if what we're talking about is the fact that dudes sucked at hitting against him.

Problem is, dudes still managed to score plenty of runs against him.

You may return your consideration to other arguments already mentioned.
7/11/2013 8:24 PM
I think FIP is ****.

WAR is OK but not the be all to end all.

That said, no matter what metric you use, except W/L or BB9, Ryan is amongst the best pitchers of all-time.    The elite?  No.  Top 50?  Definitely,  Top 25?  An argument could be presented?  Top 10?  GTFO.
7/11/2013 8:36 PM
Except he didn't win games and he walked the most guys in history...by FAR. Ryan was entertaining, incredible when he was on and very average when he wasn't. You can sabermetric it to death but you can't change the fact that MANY times he simply couldn't hit the plate, and that is why he got beat almost as much as he won over his career, which, to me, takes a LOT of his luster away.
7/11/2013 8:43 PM

Did I just say "except W/L or BB9"?

Can you read, baldie?

7/11/2013 8:49 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/6/2013 5:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deathinahole on 7/4/2013 7:36:00 AM (view original):
There's a reason why this conversation keeps coming up.

Stat nerds seem to have a hard on for him, in terms of trying to tear Ryan down.

Frankly, there are two players in my lifetime where I would plop down money for a ticket just to watch that player; JR Richard and Nolan Ryan.

The simple fact that this keeps coming up over and over again is a testament to how good the Ryan Express was.
Seems to me a statnerd would have no case.

I forget the 'tard that declared FIP to be the best new stat for a pitcher.    Ryan comes out pretty good.
Pedro Martinez - 2.91
Ryan - 2.97
Clemens - 3.05
Randy Johnson - 3.19
Greg Madduz - 3.26

And, of course, his WAR is within range also.
jrd_x (a.k.a. bad_luck) was the 'tard who preached the virtues of FIP.
7/11/2013 10:08 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/11/2013 8:43:00 PM (view original):

Did I just say "except W/L or BB9"?

Can you read, baldie?

The point is "lard-*** yank-me ********", that you can't just magically take those two things away and say he's a "debateable" top ten of all-time. Dude was a .500 pitcher who walked more guys than anyone in history by a mile. Thus...MEDIOCRITY. Sure, he sold tickets, sure he was fun to watch, but there's at LEAST 50 guys in history I'd take in front of "Mr. Walk". ****...he deserves that name more than BOB Walk.
7/11/2013 10:31 PM (edited)
Nolan Ryan #266 all-time in so/bb...his career average WAR is 3.1...MEDI-*******-OCRE. In fact, that career season average WAR would have never even made the top ten in ANY season. You really can't argue with that, even with every advanced metric you can find if you take into account the ENTIRE picture.
7/11/2013 10:54 PM
Posted by nanu on 7/11/2013 8:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deathinahole on 7/11/2013 8:23:00 AM (view original):
Shazbot, nanu nanu threw out a combination of both.
Second time you'e mentioned this.

Didn't realize I had to restrict my arguments to one camp or the other.

Last I checked this was a free country.

Are you one of them commies?

I just think it says more that by advanced metrics (WAR, ERA+) AND by some conventional metrics (so so WIN%, okay ERA, WHIP) he doesn't reflect well against his peers.

Of course that is mitigated by the exceptional amount of Ks and the otherworldly H/9 he put up.

But perhaps that is true only if you're there for the flash, and forget about the substance.

I think of myself at work. If I produce memos that are EXCEPTIONAL, but only some of the time, and the rest of the time I'm bombing them, so that on average i'm doing just a bit better than average - does that make me the best employee around? Probably not...
I've never been so bored.
7/12/2013 8:04 AM
Posted by rsp777 on 7/11/2013 10:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/11/2013 8:43:00 PM (view original):

Did I just say "except W/L or BB9"?

Can you read, baldie?

The point is "lard-*** yank-me ********", that you can't just magically take those two things away and say he's a "debateable" top ten of all-time. Dude was a .500 pitcher who walked more guys than anyone in history by a mile. Thus...MEDIOCRITY. Sure, he sold tickets, sure he was fun to watch, but there's at LEAST 50 guys in history I'd take in front of "Mr. Walk". ****...he deserves that name more than BOB Walk.

Uh, you midwestern retard, he's 5th all-time in IP.  Since he did walk a batter every other inning, he should be WAY up there in career walks.  Nobody is debating the fact that he and homeplate weren't always close pals.   He was also allergic to giving up hits.   IMO, if I have a guy going 9 and giving up 11 baserunners, I'm OK with 5 of them being walks.   Would you rather he give up 11 hits and no walks?

And, for the record, GTFO = Get The **** Out.   I don't think Ryan is a debatable top 10.   Top 25.

7/12/2013 9:30 AM
This is such a weird argument. Ryan is a no doubt Hall of Famer. But he isn't anywhere near the Clemens tier. He's top 30-40 all time.
7/12/2013 9:52 AM
What's interesting when you look at his stats is that he sort of figured out how to throw strikes when he went to Houston...walk rate dropped into the 3s per 9.  And the 2 times he lead the league in WHIP, he was in his 40s.  It appears he learned how to pitch in the 80s and 90s, rather than just trying to throw the ball as hard as he could.

I'd argue Top 50, but I don't think I'd go as far as Top 25.  A guy with nearly unhittable stuff who usually didn't have command of his pitches.
of 8
All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Nolan Ryan: Thoroughly Average Good Pitcher

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

Popular on WhatIfSports site: Baseball Simulation | College Basketball Game | College Football Game | Online Baseball Game | Hockey Simulation | NFL Picks | College Football Picks | Sports Games

© 1999-2014 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.