7/28/2013 8:45 PM (edited)
Post For Coach_Deen from his son:

What I was doing took longer than I thought it would, so I didn't get near as many games as I wanted. That said, I ran 25 test games to test the running game only with my Pittsburgh St.  team and "onsides" Oklahoma Panhandle St. We both ran the I-Formation and 4-3 balanced defense. My goal was to see how game planning effected the run.

Through 25 games:

Pitt St.

Vs. Pass
350 carries / 1,569 YDS. / Avg. 4.48 YPC

Vs. Rush
462 carries / 675 YDS. / Avg. 1.46 YPC


OK. Panhandle St.

Vs. Pass
975 carries / 7,350 YDS. / Avg. 7.54 YPC

Vs. Rush
637 carries / 1,812 YDS. / Avg. 2.84 YPC

Notes:

I believe, without a doubt, in this situation game planning is very relevant. Maybe too much so, but I'm not sure about that. The Pitt St. numbers are about what I would expect, 4.48 vs. pass defense, 1.46 vs. rush defense, but the OK. Pan. St. numbers were much wider, 7.54 to 2.84.

Also, though not what I was looking for, I believe this test goes a long way in showing that the ratings also mean a tremendous amount...IN THE RUNNING GAME. OK. Pan St. had stronger RB's, OL & DL, though not by a lot in any one area it added up to be significant. They avg. 7.54 per rush vs. pass defense vs. Pitt. St.'s 4.48, and 2.84 vs. rush defense vs. Pitt. St.'s 1.46 yards per attempt. Based on this small test I would say the running game is in decent if not great shape. I'm going to do the same thing in the next few day's with the passing game. Needless to say I expect far different results!
7/28/2013 9:03 PM (edited)
This does not show that game planning is very relevant. This does show that should I guess right I will get rewarded by the sim engine. Should I guess wrong I will be penalized.

Guessing right is not what game planning should be about. In RL the better teams don't spend their time guessing right. They execute correctly what they know and what they have learned in practice. The better teams in 1.0 were the teams that executed their talents and knowledge the best.

Edit: Bottom line, I don't know why anyone would want to play a guessing game. 

Coach 1, "I guess red!"

Coach 2, "Sorry it's yellow. I win you lose schmuck!!"



7/28/2013 9:24 PM
Isn't it amazing how in February the two worlds filled up in a day and so they opened 4 more worlds. Today the r not enough coaches to foil up the 2 original worlds. V2 looks better everyday!
7/28/2013 9:40 PM
Posted by jibe on 7/28/2013 9:03:00 PM (view original):
This does not show that game planning is very relevant. This does show that should I guess right I will get rewarded by the sim engine. Should I guess wrong I will be penalized.

Guessing right is not what game planning should be about. In RL the better teams don't spend their time guessing right. They execute correctly what they know and what they have learned in practice. The better teams in 1.0 were the teams that executed their talents and knowledge the best.

Edit: Bottom line, I don't know why anyone would want to play a guessing game. 

Coach 1, "I guess red!"

Coach 2, "Sorry it's yellow. I win you lose schmuck!!"



This isn't entirely correct.  If you are 100% run or pass, it is your guess.  If you're anything but 100%, it's the engine's guess on your behalf.
7/28/2013 9:41 PM
Posted by starfinder77 on 7/28/2013 9:24:00 PM (view original):
Isn't it amazing how in February the two worlds filled up in a day and so they opened 4 more worlds. Today the r not enough coaches to foil up the 2 original worlds. V2 looks better everyday!
No V2 does not look better. I had as many as 10 teams under 1.0 and have ran as many as 6 when 2.0 first came out. I am now down to 1 and recruiting starts in Heisman on Thursday and I am very much up in the air as far as renewing goes. The only motivation for me is to see how this rebuild would do the next season with it being all of my recruits.

WIS owes its customers a huge appollogy. Not to mention they really should be called in by the better business bureau for having lied to its customer base for the last two years. It is their lies that kept me playing this for the past two calender years.

7/28/2013 11:03 PM
Posted by jibe on 7/28/2013 9:03:00 PM (view original):
This does not show that game planning is very relevant. This does show that should I guess right I will get rewarded by the sim engine. Should I guess wrong I will be penalized.

Guessing right is not what game planning should be about. In RL the better teams don't spend their time guessing right. They execute correctly what they know and what they have learned in practice. The better teams in 1.0 were the teams that executed their talents and knowledge the best.

Edit: Bottom line, I don't know why anyone would want to play a guessing game. 

Coach 1, "I guess red!"

Coach 2, "Sorry it's yellow. I win you lose schmuck!!"



I'm curious as to what your solution would be for a football sim then.  A team has the option to play more towards the pass or more towards the run.  I don't consider it guessing if you are playing the run in a third and short situation against a Wishbone offense.  That's just smart game planning.

I'm happy to see that there is a significant difference in playing the run against a rush and playing the pass against a rush.  There is at least something about this engine that is right.
7/28/2013 11:31 PM
Posted by jibe on 7/28/2013 9:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by starfinder77 on 7/28/2013 9:24:00 PM (view original):
Isn't it amazing how in February the two worlds filled up in a day and so they opened 4 more worlds. Today the r not enough coaches to foil up the 2 original worlds. V2 looks better everyday!
No V2 does not look better. I had as many as 10 teams under 1.0 and have ran as many as 6 when 2.0 first came out. I am now down to 1 and recruiting starts in Heisman on Thursday and I am very much up in the air as far as renewing goes. The only motivation for me is to see how this rebuild would do the next season with it being all of my recruits.

WIS owes its customers a huge appollogy. Not to mention they really should be called in by the better business bureau for having lied to its customer base for the last two years. It is their lies that kept me playing this for the past two calender years.

I'm just curious, jibe. The only reason for anyone to be involved in the beta test is to help make 3.0 the best it can be. There is no other reason, period. So why are you here?
7/28/2013 11:53 PM
Posted by onside on 7/28/2013 11:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jibe on 7/28/2013 9:03:00 PM (view original):
This does not show that game planning is very relevant. This does show that should I guess right I will get rewarded by the sim engine. Should I guess wrong I will be penalized.

Guessing right is not what game planning should be about. In RL the better teams don't spend their time guessing right. They execute correctly what they know and what they have learned in practice. The better teams in 1.0 were the teams that executed their talents and knowledge the best.

Edit: Bottom line, I don't know why anyone would want to play a guessing game. 

Coach 1, "I guess red!"

Coach 2, "Sorry it's yellow. I win you lose schmuck!!"



I'm curious as to what your solution would be for a football sim then.  A team has the option to play more towards the pass or more towards the run.  I don't consider it guessing if you are playing the run in a third and short situation against a Wishbone offense.  That's just smart game planning.

I'm happy to see that there is a significant difference in playing the run against a rush and playing the pass against a rush.  There is at least something about this engine that is right.
I like 1.0 and 2.0's solution where you can have your defense lean one way or the other or be balanced to read and react.  It didn't necessarily work that way, but it made sense and I like the idea.  

I think forcing a defense to defend only either/or is a big issue and takes away from the control you have.  It also turns it into more of a guessing game with regard to gameplanning, and even at that you're still at the mercy of whether the engine makes the right call for you at the right time.  IMO, this is the primary reason why wishbone and nd box passing and shotgun running are so effective.  You guess wrong and you have no recourse until halftime.
7/29/2013 12:29 AM
I agree with slider. It is a coin flip within the engine if you don't pick 100%. And then if the you are wrong - you are always very wrong according to deen's numbers. I think the numbers for defense should allow you to fudge and give a 50/50 which wouldn't mean half 100% pass and half 100% run, but an even possibility of either for each play.
7/29/2013 7:27 AM
I agree. My idea was to play at 100% either way, but after these numbers the penalty is just to high. The more I thought about it the more I liked the numbers because I am a proponent of game planning meaning a little more than it does in 2.0, and IF they would go back to 50/50 meaning a balanced defense, like slider & katz are saying I think it would be solid...
7/29/2013 7:36 AM
LOL....Not sure if this means anything but I forgot to change my game plan (still in I-Formation, all run & 4-3 balanced) and I'm tied with a pretty bad SIM team, 6-6, at the half...
7/29/2013 9:34 AM (edited)
Posted by coach_billyb on 7/28/2013 11:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jibe on 7/28/2013 9:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by starfinder77 on 7/28/2013 9:24:00 PM (view original):
Isn't it amazing how in February the two worlds filled up in a day and so they opened 4 more worlds. Today the r not enough coaches to foil up the 2 original worlds. V2 looks better everyday!
No V2 does not look better. I had as many as 10 teams under 1.0 and have ran as many as 6 when 2.0 first came out. I am now down to 1 and recruiting starts in Heisman on Thursday and I am very much up in the air as far as renewing goes. The only motivation for me is to see how this rebuild would do the next season with it being all of my recruits.

WIS owes its customers a huge appollogy. Not to mention they really should be called in by the better business bureau for having lied to its customer base for the last two years. It is their lies that kept me playing this for the past two calender years.

I'm just curious, jibe. The only reason for anyone to be involved in the beta test is to help make 3.0 the best it can be. There is no other reason, period. So why are you here?
So Deen, you have told the community time and time again how wonderful 3.0 is and how close it is to being done. What you are implying is one is only being helpful if they agree with you.

Quite frankly with what I have been told by WIS employees for two years running and with reality being where this update really is and seeing that coaching 101 is about salami I am ****** and will not appologize for that.

Edit: It also quite irks me that the now lead developer cares enough about the game he is working on to have a team, Alma, in Craven  for two seasons and not even sign one recruit or set depth charts or make his own custom game plan. I call this BS.

7/29/2013 8:25 AM
Posted by slid64er on 7/28/2013 11:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by onside on 7/28/2013 11:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jibe on 7/28/2013 9:03:00 PM (view original):
This does not show that game planning is very relevant. This does show that should I guess right I will get rewarded by the sim engine. Should I guess wrong I will be penalized.

Guessing right is not what game planning should be about. In RL the better teams don't spend their time guessing right. They execute correctly what they know and what they have learned in practice. The better teams in 1.0 were the teams that executed their talents and knowledge the best.

Edit: Bottom line, I don't know why anyone would want to play a guessing game. 

Coach 1, "I guess red!"

Coach 2, "Sorry it's yellow. I win you lose schmuck!!"



I'm curious as to what your solution would be for a football sim then.  A team has the option to play more towards the pass or more towards the run.  I don't consider it guessing if you are playing the run in a third and short situation against a Wishbone offense.  That's just smart game planning.

I'm happy to see that there is a significant difference in playing the run against a rush and playing the pass against a rush.  There is at least something about this engine that is right.
I like 1.0 and 2.0's solution where you can have your defense lean one way or the other or be balanced to read and react.  It didn't necessarily work that way, but it made sense and I like the idea.  

I think forcing a defense to defend only either/or is a big issue and takes away from the control you have.  It also turns it into more of a guessing game with regard to gameplanning, and even at that you're still at the mercy of whether the engine makes the right call for you at the right time.  IMO, this is the primary reason why wishbone and nd box passing and shotgun running are so effective.  You guess wrong and you have no recourse until halftime.
Okay, I understand what you are saying now.  I agree.
7/29/2013 9:27 AM
Posted by onside on 7/28/2013 11:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jibe on 7/28/2013 9:03:00 PM (view original):
This does not show that game planning is very relevant. This does show that should I guess right I will get rewarded by the sim engine. Should I guess wrong I will be penalized.

Guessing right is not what game planning should be about. In RL the better teams don't spend their time guessing right. They execute correctly what they know and what they have learned in practice. The better teams in 1.0 were the teams that executed their talents and knowledge the best.

Edit: Bottom line, I don't know why anyone would want to play a guessing game. 

Coach 1, "I guess red!"

Coach 2, "Sorry it's yellow. I win you lose schmuck!!"



I'm curious as to what your solution would be for a football sim then.  A team has the option to play more towards the pass or more towards the run.  I don't consider it guessing if you are playing the run in a third and short situation against a Wishbone offense.  That's just smart game planning.

I'm happy to see that there is a significant difference in playing the run against a rush and playing the pass against a rush.  There is at least something about this engine that is right.
To me onside far too much weight has been placed by the developers and coaches as well on a game by game game planning. imo game planning starts with recruiting and it has in mind 4-5 seasons down the road. It then flows over into practice. I recruit to the strengths that I want to play to. I then practice these day after day.  This imo is how it should be working.

If I recruit to be a heavy run WB team that will be my focus and strength. I should practice this. If I choose to deviate from this for a game and be a heavy pass WB team to trick my opponent it doesn't mean that I would never be able to complete a pass but b/c its not really my game its going to be risky to deviate from my main plan. The way things are being set up with the 3.0 game planning you are actually being rewarded for deviating from your main focus only b/c the defense has guessed wrong. I guess I don't think it should be this way.

Once again the game needs to start with talent and all things should trickle down from there. Note that I'm not saying that the other things shouldn't matter but that talent needs to be the foundation and I'm afraid the developer has bypassed this.


7/29/2013 11:04 AM
Posted by jibe on 7/29/2013 9:34:00 AM (view original):
Posted by coach_billyb on 7/28/2013 11:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jibe on 7/28/2013 9:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by starfinder77 on 7/28/2013 9:24:00 PM (view original):
Isn't it amazing how in February the two worlds filled up in a day and so they opened 4 more worlds. Today the r not enough coaches to foil up the 2 original worlds. V2 looks better everyday!
No V2 does not look better. I had as many as 10 teams under 1.0 and have ran as many as 6 when 2.0 first came out. I am now down to 1 and recruiting starts in Heisman on Thursday and I am very much up in the air as far as renewing goes. The only motivation for me is to see how this rebuild would do the next season with it being all of my recruits.

WIS owes its customers a huge appollogy. Not to mention they really should be called in by the better business bureau for having lied to its customer base for the last two years. It is their lies that kept me playing this for the past two calender years.

I'm just curious, jibe. The only reason for anyone to be involved in the beta test is to help make 3.0 the best it can be. There is no other reason, period. So why are you here?
So Deen, you have told the community time and time again how wonderful 3.0 is and how close it is to being done. What you are implying is one is only being helpful if they agree with you.

Quite frankly with what I have been told by WIS employees for two years running and with reality being where this update really is and seeing that coaching 101 is about salami I am ****** and will not appologize for that.

Edit: It also quite irks me that the now lead developer cares enough about the game he is working on to have a team, Alma, in Craven  for two seasons and not even sign one recruit or set depth charts or make his own custom game plan. I call this BS.

Jibe, at least get your facts straight. I have NEVER said 3.0 was "wonderful", and I have NEVER said or implied that anyone not in agreement with me is wrong. I agree that 3.0 isn't ready, and I think it's insane that the lead developer hasn't recruited or game planned in 3.0. Where you and I disagree is how much good simply complaining does. It's frustrating to me to spend hours on top of hours trying to be a part of the solution then someone uses it as a forum to simply complain. I guess what I'm trying to say is neither of us believe 3.0 is ready. I'm doing what I can do to help make it ready. If you see the need to complain, and I get that, why not start a thread doing so instead of using other peoples. This way the coaches that want to read this can do so, but the ones that don't want to don't have to open it. Make sense?

P.S. I really believe the way you and me feel about 3.0 is closer than you think it is...

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