All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > This jobs logic is just complete bullsh
9/5/2013 4:31 PM
Posted by wildcat98 on 9/4/2013 9:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tbird9423 on 9/4/2013 7:28:00 PM (view original):
I don't understand why the game would get harder with a big 6.  Sure I can get better recruits and I play the same DIV I competition.  I have more money to spend on recruits, more prestige to get recruits and the knowledge of those with other DIV I contenders who "poach" or challengen for recruits much less.  Right now, I spend 40k getting a guy that is the 25th best in my area in a position and would imagine that many of the guys ranked 1-24 are going for much cheaper than that.  I don't want to start a fight, just saying I would like to hear the reasoning behind what you stated.  
   Ask almost anyone who prefers D2 or D3 and the reasoning isn't that it is harder at the BIG 6 level.  A truer sentiment is that it is near impossible to compete as anything but a big 6 (exceptions understood) and the pathway to get there is fraught with inconsistencies and disadvantages that frustrate the hell out of all but the most patient.
   I don't think the top guys are necessarily afraid but I think they are comparing apples to oranges.  As someone who played the game in the past, the current system is much harder relative to advancement and the gaps between the haves and have nots have grown considerably.  The cause or the solution we can all argue about, but I think we all need to admit that "making newbies go through what I went through" mentality is not appropriate as the route upwards to being a competitive team is much different now.  My fear comment comes from that fact that if a person truly wants competition they would be pushing for WIS to allow more upward mobility rather than suggesting the issue resides with the end-user.
I agree with basically all of this. I've started being able to get better and better recruits at Campbell over my seasons there, but just to get a guy that's Top 20 at his position is BRUTAL, even when he's <100 miles from my campus. A lot of that has to do with UNC/Duke/etc. stocking their benches, but even when it's a team like UConn or similar, it's almost impossible to sway them. No way a recruit like Stephon Curry goes to Davidson in a WIS world, that's for sure.
wildcat, this is simply not true. ive signed 90 ath/reb/def bigs on a D+ mid major when i spent *HALF* my budget on pure recruiting experimentation. frankly, the only reason i recruited at all was because i felt bad totally ghost shipping. i looked around and it just so happened there were some amazing bigs to be had cheap, so i grabbed them. sometimes thats the case, sometimes its not, its it happens. on b- mid major recently we signed a SF id start on a d1 championship team. these guys are out there. are they rated top 20 at his position? no - ratings are misleading bullshit, but if you have a guy that good rated that highly, of course hes going to a big school. thats obvious. but there are great players NOT highly rated out there to be had. and good ones. and decent ones. you build a team of those with the right strengths and weaknesses and you can compete with big 6 teams. the trick, then, is NOT to compete with big 6 teams. beat up on all the sims and mid majors, get your NT bid, and hopefully you have a shot at an NT win. to accomplish that, you really dont even need to be competitive with big 6 teams - but you certainly can be, the talent is out there, the players are out there. 
9/5/2013 6:40 PM
Wow girt feel like I have been lectured by a community college professor. I would tell you a story about a guy I know that lived in a house without mirrors but doubt it would mean anything.
As for dac, I am game for that. I think it could be a great learning opportunity for either you or me but also hopefully for everyone. I want to make it clear that in 6 seasons, the div 1 team is going to be able to get into the nt on a yearly basis. I think that is what you had inferred, correct? So I can pay for ten seasons and expect at least 3-4 nt apearances and looking stable for the future
Know that I will be rooting for you to have success and am wondering if you are open to journaling the experience so that myself and others could learn from the process? I'll wait to hear back but quite refreshing to have someone put their money (and time) and not just their mouths.
9/5/2013 9:07 PM
Posted by tbird9423 on 9/5/2013 6:40:00 PM (view original):
Wow girt feel like I have been lectured by a community college professor. I would tell you a story about a guy I know that lived in a house without mirrors but doubt it would mean anything.
As for dac, I am game for that. I think it could be a great learning opportunity for either you or me but also hopefully for everyone. I want to make it clear that in 6 seasons, the div 1 team is going to be able to get into the nt on a yearly basis. I think that is what you had inferred, correct? So I can pay for ten seasons and expect at least 3-4 nt apearances and looking stable for the future
Know that I will be rooting for you to have success and am wondering if you are open to journaling the experience so that myself and others could learn from the process? I'll wait to hear back but quite refreshing to have someone put their money (and time) and not just their mouths.
This should be VERY interesting.
9/5/2013 9:14 PM
Posted by gillispie1 on 9/5/2013 4:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by wildcat98 on 9/4/2013 9:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tbird9423 on 9/4/2013 7:28:00 PM (view original):
I don't understand why the game would get harder with a big 6.  Sure I can get better recruits and I play the same DIV I competition.  I have more money to spend on recruits, more prestige to get recruits and the knowledge of those with other DIV I contenders who "poach" or challengen for recruits much less.  Right now, I spend 40k getting a guy that is the 25th best in my area in a position and would imagine that many of the guys ranked 1-24 are going for much cheaper than that.  I don't want to start a fight, just saying I would like to hear the reasoning behind what you stated.  
   Ask almost anyone who prefers D2 or D3 and the reasoning isn't that it is harder at the BIG 6 level.  A truer sentiment is that it is near impossible to compete as anything but a big 6 (exceptions understood) and the pathway to get there is fraught with inconsistencies and disadvantages that frustrate the hell out of all but the most patient.
   I don't think the top guys are necessarily afraid but I think they are comparing apples to oranges.  As someone who played the game in the past, the current system is much harder relative to advancement and the gaps between the haves and have nots have grown considerably.  The cause or the solution we can all argue about, but I think we all need to admit that "making newbies go through what I went through" mentality is not appropriate as the route upwards to being a competitive team is much different now.  My fear comment comes from that fact that if a person truly wants competition they would be pushing for WIS to allow more upward mobility rather than suggesting the issue resides with the end-user.
I agree with basically all of this. I've started being able to get better and better recruits at Campbell over my seasons there, but just to get a guy that's Top 20 at his position is BRUTAL, even when he's <100 miles from my campus. A lot of that has to do with UNC/Duke/etc. stocking their benches, but even when it's a team like UConn or similar, it's almost impossible to sway them. No way a recruit like Stephon Curry goes to Davidson in a WIS world, that's for sure.
wildcat, this is simply not true. ive signed 90 ath/reb/def bigs on a D+ mid major when i spent *HALF* my budget on pure recruiting experimentation. frankly, the only reason i recruited at all was because i felt bad totally ghost shipping. i looked around and it just so happened there were some amazing bigs to be had cheap, so i grabbed them. sometimes thats the case, sometimes its not, its it happens. on b- mid major recently we signed a SF id start on a d1 championship team. these guys are out there. are they rated top 20 at his position? no - ratings are misleading bullshit, but if you have a guy that good rated that highly, of course hes going to a big school. thats obvious. but there are great players NOT highly rated out there to be had. and good ones. and decent ones. you build a team of those with the right strengths and weaknesses and you can compete with big 6 teams. the trick, then, is NOT to compete with big 6 teams. beat up on all the sims and mid majors, get your NT bid, and hopefully you have a shot at an NT win. to accomplish that, you really dont even need to be competitive with big 6 teams - but you certainly can be, the talent is out there, the players are out there. 
Thanks for the reply, Jeff. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I feel like I'm really getting the hang of low-major D-1 recruiting now. As you point out, it's more a matter of identifying the high potential guys that have the potential to develop into a top 20-type player, even though they're not ranked that high during the recruiting process.

My main issue, however, is game planning. I'm just not very good at it, and every single season, I seem to lose 2-3 games (and sometimes more) that I had no business losing. I've done little experiments with +5 or -5 defenses, combined with double teams; I've tried to make it so I never go beyond +2 or -2; I've tried switching guy's positioning based on matchups; I've tried being super minimalist in my game planning; I've tried almost everything I can think of, but I can't seem to "get over the hump", so-to-speak. I've got to figure out some way to get better at that aspect of things, or I'll never get past the low-major D-1 level.
9/5/2013 9:38 PM
wildcat, one thing i'll say is this. you say you are burnt out, hope the big 6 job will spark enthusiasm. and maybe it will. but in this game the love for the strategy and competition is what has to keep you going. when you get to a really good conference, you are going to be facing some of the games' most successful coaches (generally speaking), and really, you can get the **** kicked out of you live never before. most new-to-big6 coaches go through that. so if you go there hoping for this spark or shiny player to keep your interest, good chance it doesnt work out. if you really try to double down on strategy and getting your team performing better where you are, and find the joy in that - then you can probably weather the storm that is getting destroyed at a new big 6 school.

anyway just something to think about... what kept me going was trying to master the sim engine, i loved the strategy of it. if you are struggling with game planning, it suggests your mastery of the sim engine is low. theres really a ton to get into there, a lot of experiments you can do, discussions you can have with people and stuff. i guess i'd just recommend trying to engross yourself in that, instead of hoping for a shiny team or player to give you that interest. that will always wear off in time...
9/5/2013 9:48 PM
I will candidly admit I can't figure out how the sim engine works. It's a complete mystery to me how a team like UMKC was last season beat my Campbell team in the semis of the CT. I wish I understood the sim engine half as well as you do, but my mind is not as good at the computer programming side of things to understand WHY things happen the way they do in the simulations.

For the record, recruiting is easily my favorite part of the game. Identifying and signing guys that I get to watch develop, like Grotberg, Martz, Morgan, and Knight from last season's team, is the best part of the game for me.
9/5/2013 10:32 PM
Let's say that it is way harder to compete for regular nt appearances as a newcomer at a big 6 than it is with a lower level team... That is what I am hearing. So does it then follow that the game is set up with too many advantages for top tier teams? I would think the obvious answer is yes, which means success is more connected to longevity than anything else?
9/5/2013 10:47 PM
Posted by tbird9423 on 9/5/2013 6:40:00 PM (view original):
Wow girt feel like I have been lectured by a community college professor. I would tell you a story about a guy I know that lived in a house without mirrors but doubt it would mean anything.
As for dac, I am game for that. I think it could be a great learning opportunity for either you or me but also hopefully for everyone. I want to make it clear that in 6 seasons, the div 1 team is going to be able to get into the nt on a yearly basis. I think that is what you had inferred, correct? So I can pay for ten seasons and expect at least 3-4 nt apearances and looking stable for the future
Know that I will be rooting for you to have success and am wondering if you are open to journaling the experience so that myself and others could learn from the process? I'll wait to hear back but quite refreshing to have someone put their money (and time) and not just their mouths.
I'm not yet capable/confident enough to guarantee yearly NT appearances, but I'd be willing to stake 3 out of 5, once the rebuild is running. So in a 10 year window, 4 overall NT appearances and the likelihood to repeat at least 5 or 6 out of 10 were I to stick around that long, yeah I can do that.

I'm game, but I realize that there are logistic issues to figure out. I'm already in all the 2 a day worlds. In fact (and I just thought of this) - I am 21 games into my second season at D prestige Richmond in Tark, or about 13 games into my third season at D- Columbia in Phelan. I wasn't planning on staying at either for 10 seasons, but if you want to use either of these for our experiment I'd be willing. 

Otherwise I'm at MSU in Rupp and that doesn't meet this challenge and while I'm eligible in Knight for low D1 I just started an 8 conference 5 game yearly challenge for D2 and I'm committed to staying at Valdosta St. I'm not anywhere near qualified for D 1 in any other worlds, so if you want to start fresh it'll take a while...
9/5/2013 10:54 PM
Posted by tbird9423 on 9/5/2013 10:32:00 PM (view original):
Let's say that it is way harder to compete for regular nt appearances as a newcomer at a big 6 than it is with a lower level team... That is what I am hearing. So does it then follow that the game is set up with too many advantages for top tier teams? I would think the obvious answer is yes, which means success is more connected to longevity than anything else?
If you make it there to the top - then you've earned it. Most of the guys who have those A+++ teams went through the same **** you are going through trying to get a big 6 school. Why not reward coaches who've made it to the top with some advantages? I honestly like the challenge of trying to get up there because it's possible - I've seen coaches take C programs to an A or A+ prestige. It's possible... takes some time but it's possible. 
9/5/2013 11:24 PM
Posted by tbird9423 on 9/5/2013 6:40:00 PM (view original):
Wow girt feel like I have been lectured by a community college professor. I would tell you a story about a guy I know that lived in a house without mirrors but doubt it would mean anything.
As for dac, I am game for that. I think it could be a great learning opportunity for either you or me but also hopefully for everyone. I want to make it clear that in 6 seasons, the div 1 team is going to be able to get into the nt on a yearly basis. I think that is what you had inferred, correct? So I can pay for ten seasons and expect at least 3-4 nt apearances and looking stable for the future
Know that I will be rooting for you to have success and am wondering if you are open to journaling the experience so that myself and others could learn from the process? I'll wait to hear back but quite refreshing to have someone put their money (and time) and not just their mouths.
If I'm a community college professor, I shudder to think where that leaves you.

And I'd be happy to take you up on your challenge, but only if we can significantly heighten the stakes. Sound good?

9/6/2013 7:26 PM
Dac-- how about sitemailing me closer to the end of whichever world would work for you and then I'll take a look and see what is out there that we both agree would be a good situation. Unless you are up for it, I think there are some situations where it might truly be impossible. Are you good with considering 5 nt appearances (missing it once after you have 4 seasons to build) a success for you? I don't mind paying no matter what the result if you are open to journaling a bit on the why's and how's connected with your success.
I think that is more valuable than one of us just saying, "told ya so."

Girt- not much into gambling but don't mind setting up something similar (albeit harder) with you. You can name your high stakes as long as the money you are putting up isn't coming from your trust fund or the gov't?
9/7/2013 8:54 AM
The community college professors association would like to note for the record its objection to the sarcastic reference to our knowledge of sports simulation games
9/7/2013 2:53 PM
Posted by tbird9423 on 9/6/2013 7:26:00 PM (view original):
Dac-- how about sitemailing me closer to the end of whichever world would work for you and then I'll take a look and see what is out there that we both agree would be a good situation. Unless you are up for it, I think there are some situations where it might truly be impossible. Are you good with considering 5 nt appearances (missing it once after you have 4 seasons to build) a success for you? I don't mind paying no matter what the result if you are open to journaling a bit on the why's and how's connected with your success.
I think that is more valuable than one of us just saying, "told ya so."

Girt- not much into gambling but don't mind setting up something similar (albeit harder) with you. You can name your high stakes as long as the money you are putting up isn't coming from your trust fund or the gov't?
How is what you're doing with Dacj any less "gambling" than what Girt is suggesting?  If he doesn't meet the requirements, he has to pay back the seasons, right?
9/8/2013 10:13 PM
Damn, didn't mean to kill the thread.
9/10/2013 10:29 AM
i think girt's suggestion of increased stakes suggested tbird had an opportunity to win. that makes it very much more gambling, IMO, than the dac proposal -- where he simply is paying for an experiment, or not paying if dac fails.

however, this seems irrelevant to me. you guys know how many mid major programs there are who have already done this, right? why not just look at a couple? this is clearly able to be achieved... not sure what the point is. there was some merit to the "journal your progress" part but thats about it.
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