9/17/2013 3:51 AM
Posted by mongoose_22 on 9/16/2013 8:02:00 PM (view original):
My understanding has been range and arm strength relate to +/- plays, while glove and arm accuracy relate to errors.
I am pretty sure this is correct.
9/17/2013 9:19 AM
Posted by deathinahole on 9/16/2013 5:24:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 9/16/2013 4:53:00 PM (view original):
Yea, I'm having trouble with the idea of "he would have made that play with better arm strength, but we won't tell the user that."  

Does death or someone want to show me some info re: 3B with well below average arm strength where the assists were lower than they should be, but the +/- didn't reflect it?
See above. Pick any of your leagues.

Basically, two groups; one at or above arm reqs, one below. Innings/assists. You will see a gap of .5 or more.
I'm only in 1 world, and we started recently, so the sample size is small.  The guy I use at 3rd base which low arm strength looked about average when you take his innings/assists from last year and compare to what seems to be average this year.  (3.7 innings/assists).  The guy moe was taking about on page 1 is a little worse for his career over 88 games started at 4 innings/assists.  

Are you sure you're taking into consideration that most guys with weaker arm strength also don't have great range?  Are you looking at +/- when you're looking at these guys?
9/17/2013 10:34 AM
What death is saying makes sense but I'm not sure the game records it the way we'd think.    If you look at a long history of 3B with poor arms, you'll notice many have below average RF.     I'd say the average is 3.3-3.5 for most worlds.    A lot of the weak arm 3B will check in closer to 3.   One would think it would show as a negative play but it doesn't.   My guess is that it's the equivalent of fielding a ball and not making the unnecessary throw because you know you can't record the out.

Of course, that's all speculation because you'd have to dig a lot deeper to be sure.   Did the low RF come from a team with high K/FB would be the first question to ask.   I'm not interested in digging into all that.
9/17/2013 10:54 AM
Agreed with Mike.  I have two thoughts on this:

1/  If death is right - which I lean toward - the only place this will show up is in the PBP which will say "Batter beats out an infield single to 3B."  I don't think infield singles against are tracked in player or team stats, just noted in the PBP.  It won't be an error, it won't be a plus or negative play.

2/  If you had a player with a weak arm, but great enough range and glove to make a notable difference in +/-... meaning 85 or 90+... I don't think most owners would ever think of trying that guy at 3B, they'd put him in CF.

9/17/2013 11:20 AM
"1/ If death is right - which I lean toward - the only place this will show up is in the PBP which will say "Batter beats out an infield single to 3B." I don't think infield singles against are tracked in player or team stats, just noted in the PBP. It won't be an error, it won't be a plus or negative play."

Correct, and thus why to need to group and sum up to the largest dataset (meet recs, doesn't meet recs) and why the subtle differences (ie 77 arm strength vs 81 arm strength) doesn't show.
9/17/2013 11:20 AM
To the best of my knowledge, there's no way to track IFH allowed.    I'm sort of applying it to the LH2B.    LH2B always seem to fall short in the RF department regardless of range. 
9/17/2013 11:28 AM
Posted by kcden on 9/16/2013 5:05:00 PM (view original):
Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Jason Jordan is 5th in the league in 3B assists and 4th in 3B + plays... I wouldn't go with a 70ish/70ish weak armed 3B, but a great Range/Glove guy seems to work well.
Posted this yesterday, but this guy appears to do fine in pretty much all facets of 3B, numbers-wise, and has a weak arm, but he has great range and glove for 3B (not playing CF because I have a lefty with 2B ratings and a great bat out there and not playing 2B because my 2B has a weaker arm than Jordan).
9/17/2013 12:06 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/17/2013 11:20:00 AM (view original):
To the best of my knowledge, there's no way to track IFH allowed.    I'm sort of applying it to the LH2B.    LH2B always seem to fall short in the RF department regardless of range. 
They also have a shitton of (-) plays, no?
9/17/2013 12:09 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/17/2013 11:20:00 AM (view original):
To the best of my knowledge, there's no way to track IFH allowed.    I'm sort of applying it to the LH2B.    LH2B always seem to fall short in the RF department regardless of range. 
But don't they also make a load of - plays more than their range would otherwise suggest?  (edit - burnsy beat me to that one)

This is interesting though, because some of the examples here coupled with my experience with Hector Garces seems to suggest that + arm at a position is reflected in + plays but the weak arm isn't in - plays.
9/17/2013 12:36 PM
OK, so interesting (and frustrating?) news.  I went through the 33 PBPs from my team this year.  Did a search for the word "infield" for all of them.  What I found:

Infield singles to my weak-armed 3B - 7
Of the 7, the amount of (-) plays - 1
Infield singles to other players on my team - 3

Infield singles my team has had - 7
Of the 7, the amount hit to 3B - 2

It appears I am wrong here, although it could simply be just a SSS issue?  I'm not sure.  If I am wrong, I'm annoyed by the way the (-) plays are calculated.  It has always been my assumption that if a play does not have a minus play, an average defensive player at that position also would not have made the play.  This appears to be incorrect.  There may be a threshold that needs to be hit for a (-) to register.

9/17/2013 12:45 PM
FWIW, I went through the dev chats last night, and found nothing on +/- plays specific to this.

I was also hopped up on Robaxacet, so feel free to double check that.
9/17/2013 12:53 PM
If there's a threshold that needs to be hit for a (-) to register, this may throw a wrench into Mike's DH to RF idea as well?
9/17/2013 1:04 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 9/17/2013 12:53:00 PM (view original):
If there's a threshold that needs to be hit for a (-) to register, this may throw a wrench into Mike's DH to RF idea as well?

My "Positive Plays Per Season" formula should take care of that.    My C/RF generally fall 50 plays short of the norm.

Here's your boy over the last three seasons:

 

 

inn

po

A

e

Plus

neg

Total

PPPS

Alejandro Gutierrez

3B

308.2

29

79

4

3

0

0.253

369.0

Branch Quinn

3B

5

2

0

0

0

0

0.000

0.0

Branch Quinn

3B

69

4

16

0

0

0

0.232

338.1

Brett Abbott

3B

6

1

1

0

0

0

0.167

243.0

Charles Ueno

3B

9

1

3

0

0

0

0.333

486.0

Tom Hines

3B

39

3

17

2

1

0

0.410

598.2

Stuart Chapman

3B

1.2

0

0

0

0

0

0.000

0.0

Kris Buss

3B

1236

150

297

9

17

1

0.246

358.5

Damaso Colome

3B

14

0

5

0

1

0

0.429

624.9

 

 

1688

190

418

15

22

1

0.251

366.3

Coco Hentgen

3B

273.2

29

59

6

0

1

0.190

277.5

Coco Hentgen

3B

1136

114

307

19

2

3

0.253

368.3

Coco Hentgen

3B

98

7

26

0

0

0

0.265

386.8

 

 

1507

150

392

25

2

4

0.242

353.1



So, to me, he's only costing you 13 outs of a full 162 game, 9 inning season.    That's assuming those others are typical 3B.

9/17/2013 1:09 PM
My C/RF is actually doing better(albeit they only have 140ish innings) than the normal RF:

 

 

inn

po

A

e

Plus

neg

Total

PPPS

Horacio Sosa

RF

2.1

0

0

0

0

0

0.000

0.0

Rodney Hubbard

RF

6

0

0

0

0

0

0.000

0.0

Orlando Aguilera

RF

5

0

0

0

0

0

0.000

0.0

Emmanuel Welch

RF

127

14

0

0

2

0

0.126

183.7

Kevin Ryu

RF

733.1

111

0

6

0

10

0.130

188.9

Vic Barajas *

RF

11.1

1

0

0

0

0

0.090

131.4

9/17/2013 1:14 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/17/2013 1:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 9/17/2013 12:53:00 PM (view original):
If there's a threshold that needs to be hit for a (-) to register, this may throw a wrench into Mike's DH to RF idea as well?

My "Positive Plays Per Season" formula should take care of that.    My C/RF generally fall 50 plays short of the norm.

Here's your boy over the last three seasons:

 

 

inn

po

A

e

Plus

neg

Total

PPPS

Alejandro Gutierrez

3B

308.2

29

79

4

3

0

0.253

369.0

Branch Quinn

3B

5

2

0

0

0

0

0.000

0.0

Branch Quinn

3B

69

4

16

0

0

0

0.232

338.1

Brett Abbott

3B

6

1

1

0

0

0

0.167

243.0

Charles Ueno

3B

9

1

3

0

0

0

0.333

486.0

Tom Hines

3B

39

3

17

2

1

0

0.410

598.2

Stuart Chapman

3B

1.2

0

0

0

0

0

0.000

0.0

Kris Buss

3B

1236

150

297

9

17

1

0.246

358.5

Damaso Colome

3B

14

0

5

0

1

0

0.429

624.9

 

 

1688

190

418

15

22

1

0.251

366.3

Coco Hentgen

3B

273.2

29

59

6

0

1

0.190

277.5

Coco Hentgen

3B

1136

114

307

19

2

3

0.253

368.3

Coco Hentgen

3B

98

7

26

0

0

0

0.265

386.8

 

 

1507

150

392

25

2

4

0.242

353.1



So, to me, he's only costing you 13 outs of a full 162 game, 9 inning season.    That's assuming those others are typical 3B.

BTW, he's doing an exceptionally poor job this season so I do think you've been hit with a 273 inning SSS so far.
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