All Forums > MLB > Cabrera won MVP
11/19/2013 12:34 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/19/2013 11:24:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 11:16:00 AM (view original):
To put it another way, some people think producing for a contender is more valuable than producing for a loser(as you could lose just as easily without said player).   If you put that value at 15%, Cabrera blows Trout out of the water.
Where are you getting 15%?
WAR.   You said the acceptable difference was 1.   The 10th ranked player by WAR over the last 10 years is about 6.5.    1 divided by 6.5 = 15%(more or less).   And that's at the top end of WAR.    I'm sure there are a lot more players who fall into the 2-3 WAR range than 6.5.
11/19/2013 12:40 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 12:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/19/2013 11:24:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 11:16:00 AM (view original):
To put it another way, some people think producing for a contender is more valuable than producing for a loser(as you could lose just as easily without said player).   If you put that value at 15%, Cabrera blows Trout out of the water.
Where are you getting 15%?
WAR.   You said the acceptable difference was 1.   The 10th ranked player by WAR over the last 10 years is about 6.5.    1 divided by 6.5 = 15%(more or less).   And that's at the top end of WAR.    I'm sure there are a lot more players who fall into the 2-3 WAR range than 6.5.
Do you think there is a significant difference between a 2.2 win player and a 2.8 win player?
11/19/2013 12:47 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/19/2013 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 12:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/19/2013 11:24:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 11:16:00 AM (view original):
To put it another way, some people think producing for a contender is more valuable than producing for a loser(as you could lose just as easily without said player).   If you put that value at 15%, Cabrera blows Trout out of the water.
Where are you getting 15%?
WAR.   You said the acceptable difference was 1.   The 10th ranked player by WAR over the last 10 years is about 6.5.    1 divided by 6.5 = 15%(more or less).   And that's at the top end of WAR.    I'm sure there are a lot more players who fall into the 2-3 WAR range than 6.5.
Do you think there is a significant difference between a 2.2 win player and a 2.8 win player?
Are you saying there isn't?

Career averages:
Raines  3.00
Butler   2.91

Same player I guess.
11/19/2013 12:51 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 12:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/19/2013 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 12:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/19/2013 11:24:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 11:16:00 AM (view original):
To put it another way, some people think producing for a contender is more valuable than producing for a loser(as you could lose just as easily without said player).   If you put that value at 15%, Cabrera blows Trout out of the water.
Where are you getting 15%?
WAR.   You said the acceptable difference was 1.   The 10th ranked player by WAR over the last 10 years is about 6.5.    1 divided by 6.5 = 15%(more or less).   And that's at the top end of WAR.    I'm sure there are a lot more players who fall into the 2-3 WAR range than 6.5.
Do you think there is a significant difference between a 2.2 win player and a 2.8 win player?
Are you saying there isn't?

Career averages:
Raines  3.00
Butler   2.91

Same player I guess.
I'm sure they had plenty of comparable seasons and one 3 win season is essentially the same as one 2.9 win season. Averaging out their careers, though, completely ignores peak value and longevity.

You know this since we have been over it before.

You didn't answer the question. Do you think there is a significant difference between a 2.2 win player and a 2.8 win player?

11/19/2013 12:55 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/19/2013 12:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 12:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/19/2013 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 12:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/19/2013 11:24:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 11:16:00 AM (view original):
To put it another way, some people think producing for a contender is more valuable than producing for a loser(as you could lose just as easily without said player).   If you put that value at 15%, Cabrera blows Trout out of the water.
Where are you getting 15%?
WAR.   You said the acceptable difference was 1.   The 10th ranked player by WAR over the last 10 years is about 6.5.    1 divided by 6.5 = 15%(more or less).   And that's at the top end of WAR.    I'm sure there are a lot more players who fall into the 2-3 WAR range than 6.5.
Do you think there is a significant difference between a 2.2 win player and a 2.8 win player?
Are you saying there isn't?

Career averages:
Raines  3.00
Butler   2.91

Same player I guess.
I'm sure they had plenty of comparable seasons and one 3 win season is essentially the same as one 2.9 win season. Averaging out their careers, though, completely ignores peak value and longevity.

You know this since we have been over it before.

You didn't answer the question. Do you think there is a significant difference between a 2.2 win player and a 2.8 win player?

I'm not a Disciple of WAR but if there's no difference, it seems like a pointless stat.   Are you saying there's no difference?   Because now we're reaching 25-30% being meaningless.
11/19/2013 12:56 PM
11/19/2013 12:59 PM
Did I not give it?    If there's no difference between 2.2 and 2.6, the stat is rather meaningless as a 25-30% difference is rather significant in my opinion.   Would you notice a 25% paycut?  Would you notice a 25% increase in your mortgage?
11/19/2013 1:04 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 12:59:00 PM (view original):
Did I not give it?    If there's no difference between 2.2 and 2.6, the stat is rather meaningless as a 25-30% difference is rather significant in my opinion.   Would you notice a 25% paycut?  Would you notice a 25% increase in your mortgage?
So you're saying there is a meaningful difference between a 2.2 and a 2.8 win player?
11/19/2013 1:07 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/19/2013 1:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 12:59:00 PM (view original):
Did I not give it?    If there's no difference between 2.2 and 2.6, the stat is rather meaningless as a 25-30% difference is rather significant in my opinion.   Would you notice a 25% paycut?  Would you notice a 25% increase in your mortgage?
So you're saying there is a meaningful difference between a 2.2 and a 2.8 win player?
I'm saying if there isn't, the stat itself is rather meaningless.     Since it's your precious WAR, you tell me.    25-30% is a lot in every facet of life.     Let's use batting average.   Do you think there's a significant difference between a .300 hitter and a .225 hitter?
11/19/2013 1:15 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 1:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/19/2013 1:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 12:59:00 PM (view original):
Did I not give it?    If there's no difference between 2.2 and 2.6, the stat is rather meaningless as a 25-30% difference is rather significant in my opinion.   Would you notice a 25% paycut?  Would you notice a 25% increase in your mortgage?
So you're saying there is a meaningful difference between a 2.2 and a 2.8 win player?
I'm saying if there isn't, the stat itself is rather meaningless.     Since it's your precious WAR, you tell me.    25-30% is a lot in every facet of life.     Let's use batting average.   Do you think there's a significant difference between a .300 hitter and a .225 hitter?
So you're saying yes, there is a meaningful difference?
11/19/2013 1:17 PM
I see no need to repeat myself.    Do you not think 25-30% is a significant difference in almost every walk of life?
11/19/2013 1:24 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 1:17:00 PM (view original):
I see no need to repeat myself.    Do you not think 25-30% is a significant difference in almost every walk of life?
Why do you keep answering a question with a question. It's a simple yes or no. I already answered. No, I don't think there is a significant difference between two players within the same whole number: 2.2 & 2.6; 4.4 & 4.7; 7.1 & 7.6, etc.

Do you?

11/19/2013 1:54 PM
Take David Freese and Alberto Callaspo, for example.

Both are infielders. Both had the same amount of plate appearances. Freese's WAR was 0.3. Callaspo's WAR was 100% (!!!!) higher, 0.6. To me, they are both 0 WAR players.

Their triple slash lines:

262/340/381
258/333/369

11/19/2013 2:01 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/19/2013 10:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 10:41:00 AM (view original):
You're sort of ignoring the point and discussing the hypothetical.
We don't need a hypothetical. Cabrera had X amount of production value in 2013. That X doesn't change based in his teammates.
And you also didn't address this.
11/19/2013 2:29 PM
I guess "I see no need to repeat myself" is a foreign concept to you.

As for what I didn't address, I actually did.   Production does not change due to circumstance, value does.  I know I didn't use those exact words but I've said it dozens of times.
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