Disturbing comments from Cooperstown President. Topic

tecwrg
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Posted by MikeT23 on 11/29/2013 1:46:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Got_Worms on 11/29/2013 10:59:00 AM (view original):
Getting elected to the HOF is still an honor & judging by the spirited discussion on the three HOF threads, it is most definitely worth talking about!
Meh.   Everytime a "case made" player is inducted, it becomes less of an honor.     The "spirited discussion" stems from some users thinking it should be more exclusive(tec/me are good examples), while others think it should be more inclusive(you/BL are good examples). 

Glavine is a good example.   My initial reaction is "no thanks".   My secondary reaction, after looking at his stats, is still largely "no thanks" but I'm not nearly as convinced as I am that Kenny Lofton doesn't belong. 
Glavine had ten All-Star selections, five 20-win seasons, two Cy Young Awards, and won over 300 games in his career.

What exactly is "no thanks" about that?
11/29/2013 4:48 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 11/29/2013 3:54:00 PM (view original):
I'm not trying to make it more inclusive. I want to include guys that performed well compared to an average hall of famer at their position and exclude guys that didn't. Very few guys meet the Bonds/Ruth/Mays or Clemens/Seaver/Johnson standard. But that isn't the standard (obviously) for inclusion.

To me, comparing guys to the average hall of famer is the best way to decide if they belong. If Bernie Williams was better than most of the center fielders already in the hall, he'd belong. But he wasn't.
Of course you want to make it more inclusive.  When you argue that Blyleven was a great selection, and that Lofton deserves consideration, you're making the HOF a joke.
11/29/2013 4:49 PM
bad_luck
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Pitcher wins and all star selections aren't as important as you think.

Glavine was great, I'd vote for him, but I'd take Mussina and Schilling over him first.
11/29/2013 4:50 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 11/29/2013 4:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/29/2013 3:54:00 PM (view original):
I'm not trying to make it more inclusive. I want to include guys that performed well compared to an average hall of famer at their position and exclude guys that didn't. Very few guys meet the Bonds/Ruth/Mays or Clemens/Seaver/Johnson standard. But that isn't the standard (obviously) for inclusion.

To me, comparing guys to the average hall of famer is the best way to decide if they belong. If Bernie Williams was better than most of the center fielders already in the hall, he'd belong. But he wasn't.
Of course you want to make it more inclusive.  When you argue that Blyleven was a great selection, and that Lofton deserves consideration, you're making the HOF a joke.
Blyleven was massively underrated. He's better than the average hall of fame starting pitcher.

Lofton isn't better than the average hall of fame center fielder but he's close.
11/29/2013 4:52 PM
tecwrg
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Do you understand that when you start watering down the HOF, that "average" becomes lower than it used to be?
11/29/2013 5:07 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 11/29/2013 4:50:00 PM (view original):
Pitcher wins and all star selections aren't as important as you think.

Glavine was great, I'd vote for him, but I'd take Mussina and Schilling over him first.
No, of course not.  Winning games is not important.  Being ranked as superior among your peers is not important either.


11/29/2013 5:09 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by tecwrg on 11/29/2013 4:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/29/2013 1:46:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Got_Worms on 11/29/2013 10:59:00 AM (view original):
Getting elected to the HOF is still an honor & judging by the spirited discussion on the three HOF threads, it is most definitely worth talking about!
Meh.   Everytime a "case made" player is inducted, it becomes less of an honor.     The "spirited discussion" stems from some users thinking it should be more exclusive(tec/me are good examples), while others think it should be more inclusive(you/BL are good examples). 

Glavine is a good example.   My initial reaction is "no thanks".   My secondary reaction, after looking at his stats, is still largely "no thanks" but I'm not nearly as convinced as I am that Kenny Lofton doesn't belong. 
Glavine had ten All-Star selections, five 20-win seasons, two Cy Young Awards, and won over 300 games in his career.

What exactly is "no thanks" about that?
Oh, I don't know.   His 3.5ish ERA and 1.3ish WHIP?   Doesn't seem "special" to me. 
11/29/2013 5:14 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 11/29/2013 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Do you understand that when you start watering down the HOF, that "average" becomes lower than it used to be?
Sure, but if you only allow in players that are above HOF average, the average doesn't go down.
11/29/2013 5:18 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 11/29/2013 5:09:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/29/2013 4:50:00 PM (view original):
Pitcher wins and all star selections aren't as important as you think.

Glavine was great, I'd vote for him, but I'd take Mussina and Schilling over him first.
No, of course not.  Winning games is not important.  Being ranked as superior among your peers is not important either.


Pitcher wins and team wins are not the same thing. You know this.
11/29/2013 5:19 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 11/29/2013 5:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 11/29/2013 4:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/29/2013 1:46:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Got_Worms on 11/29/2013 10:59:00 AM (view original):
Getting elected to the HOF is still an honor & judging by the spirited discussion on the three HOF threads, it is most definitely worth talking about!
Meh.   Everytime a "case made" player is inducted, it becomes less of an honor.     The "spirited discussion" stems from some users thinking it should be more exclusive(tec/me are good examples), while others think it should be more inclusive(you/BL are good examples). 

Glavine is a good example.   My initial reaction is "no thanks".   My secondary reaction, after looking at his stats, is still largely "no thanks" but I'm not nearly as convinced as I am that Kenny Lofton doesn't belong. 
Glavine had ten All-Star selections, five 20-win seasons, two Cy Young Awards, and won over 300 games in his career.

What exactly is "no thanks" about that?
Oh, I don't know.   His 3.5ish ERA and 1.3ish WHIP?   Doesn't seem "special" to me. 
Taken in context, he's very good. The run scoring environment when Glavine pitched was very high. A guy with a 3.50 era in the 90's and 2000's is a much better pitcher than a guy with a 3.50 era in the 60's or 70's.
11/29/2013 5:21 PM
MikeT23
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ERA+ of 118.     Rick Aguilera, Bert Blyleven, Dave Rozema, Hiroki Kuroda and Bob Stanley level pitching. 
11/29/2013 5:41 PM
ncmusician_7
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Posted by bad_luck on 11/29/2013 4:50:00 PM (view original):
Pitcher wins and all star selections aren't as important as you think.

Glavine was great, I'd vote for him, but I'd take Mussina and Schilling over him first.
Why would you take Mussina over Glavine?  Mussina had 3563 IP with a 123 ERA+, Glavine had 4413 IP with a 118 ERA+.  Both had 9 seasons of 200+ IP and 120+ ERA+.
11/29/2013 5:49 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by ncmusician_7 on 11/29/2013 5:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/29/2013 4:50:00 PM (view original):
Pitcher wins and all star selections aren't as important as you think.

Glavine was great, I'd vote for him, but I'd take Mussina and Schilling over him first.
Why would you take Mussina over Glavine?  Mussina had 3563 IP with a 123 ERA+, Glavine had 4413 IP with a 118 ERA+.  Both had 9 seasons of 200+ IP and 120+ ERA+.
You're right, they're about even. That extra 800+ IP easily closes the ERA+ gap. I'd put them both in along with Schilling.
11/29/2013 6:22 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 11/29/2013 5:41:00 PM (view original):
ERA+ of 118.     Rick Aguilera, Bert Blyleven, Dave Rozema, Hiroki Kuroda and Bob Stanley level pitching. 
Aguilera, Kuroda, Rozema, and Stanley pitched limited innings. All around 1100 or 1200 (except Stanley at 1700). Glavine threw 4400. Big difference.
11/29/2013 6:29 PM
MikeT23
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So let's give him a gold watch of longevity. 

11/29/2013 6:34 PM
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