Bernie or Edgar? Topic

Monday walked once ever 7.75 PA.  Williams once every 8.5.    So any stat assigning equal value to walks will be skewed in my opinion.    And any stat saying "They were comparable at the plate" is wrong.
12/5/2013 10:29 AM
And, yes, BL, I know a walk is better than an out.   
12/5/2013 10:31 AM
Well, the slugging percentage aspect of OPS makes up for it.  The guy who's on base 40 times in 100 plate appearances, with 5 walks and 25 singles, has a better slugging percentage than the guy who's on base 40 times, with 10 walks and 20 singles. OPS likes the 1st guy more.
12/5/2013 10:35 AM
The "disconnect" for me is that it doesn't pass the smell test.

The ONLY thing that hints at Monday and Williams being similar offensive performers is career OPS+.  No other stats support that.  Neither does the All-Star or MVP support that both players received, which would indicate how they were viewed among their contemporaries.  Neither does my recollection of what I saw when I watched each one of them play.

Yet BL and burnsey seem to be grabbing onto OPS+ and say "yeah, that works for me!"
12/5/2013 10:42 AM
OPS+ says Adam Dunn and BW were similar players.    I like Adam Dunn.  I'd like a guy like AD on my team.    But same as BW?  No.   Dude walks a lot and hits homers.   Basically all or nothing.   Can't build a team of Adam Dunns.
12/5/2013 10:43 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 12/5/2013 10:42:00 AM (view original):
The "disconnect" for me is that it doesn't pass the smell test.

The ONLY thing that hints at Monday and Williams being similar offensive performers is career OPS+.  No other stats support that.  Neither does the All-Star or MVP support that both players received, which would indicate how they were viewed among their contemporaries.  Neither does my recollection of what I saw when I watched each one of them play.

Yet BL and burnsey seem to be grabbing onto OPS+ and say "yeah, that works for me!"
What other stats do you want?  You haven't showed any evidence that they weren't comparable.  Give me another stat.  The argument is "when they played."  So a rate stat.  Bernie is easily better re: cumulative stats, that's obvious.
12/5/2013 10:54 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2013 10:43:00 AM (view original):
OPS+ says Adam Dunn and BW were similar players.    I like Adam Dunn.  I'd like a guy like AD on my team.    But same as BW?  No.   Dude walks a lot and hits homers.   Basically all or nothing.   Can't build a team of Adam Dunns.
You're right, Dunn is an extreme player.  I'd want a more consistent hitter like Bernie over Adam Dunn.
12/5/2013 10:54 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2013 10:36:00 AM (view original):
Well, the slugging percentage aspect of OPS makes up for it.  The guy who's on base 40 times in 100 plate appearances, with 5 walks and 25 singles, has a better slugging percentage than the guy who's on base 40 times, with 10 walks and 20 singles. OPS likes the 1st guy more.
This. Neither stat is perfect but putting them together helps account for the imperfections. Though OPS still undervalues OBP by quite a bit.
12/5/2013 11:49 AM
Dunn may be extreme, but I disagree that he wouldn't work as a team of Adam Dunns. You can't win with a team of Dave Kingman because its all solo HRs. But with the OBP, a team of Adam Dunns scores 5+ runs a game. (Not talking defense here obviously).
12/5/2013 11:57 AM
OPs doesn't value BB and H the same.
1 for 1 is a 2.000 OPS. 0 for 0 with a BB is 1.000 OPS.

2-4 is a 1.000 OPS.
1-3, BB is a .833 OPS.

Sounds right to me.

12/5/2013 11:59 AM
When a stat says AD, BW and RM were/are similar, the stat needs to be questioned. 

The fact of the matter is I like OPS and OPS+.    But I'm not sure it's a good tool to compare players' value. 
12/5/2013 12:00 PM
Posted by mfahie on 12/5/2013 11:57:00 AM (view original):
Dunn may be extreme, but I disagree that he wouldn't work as a team of Adam Dunns. You can't win with a team of Dave Kingman because its all solo HRs. But with the OBP, a team of Adam Dunns scores 5+ runs a game. (Not talking defense here obviously).
According to baseball musings lineup tool, a full lineup of Adam Dunn would score just a hair over 6 runs a game. A full lineup of Bernie Williams would also score just a hair over 6 runs a game.
12/5/2013 12:03 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2013 12:00:00 PM (view original):
When a stat says AD, BW and RM were/are similar, the stat needs to be questioned. 

The fact of the matter is I like OPS and OPS+.    But I'm not sure it's a good tool to compare players' value. 
In terms of their abilities to get on base and hit for power, all three are similar when you account for the era they played in.
12/5/2013 12:04 PM
Posted by mfahie on 12/5/2013 11:57:00 AM (view original):
Dunn may be extreme, but I disagree that he wouldn't work as a team of Adam Dunns. You can't win with a team of Dave Kingman because its all solo HRs. But with the OBP, a team of Adam Dunns scores 5+ runs a game. (Not talking defense here obviously).
Speaking of......Kingman and Robin Yount both had an OPS+ of 115.     Does that sound right?
12/5/2013 12:08 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2013 12:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by mfahie on 12/5/2013 11:57:00 AM (view original):
Dunn may be extreme, but I disagree that he wouldn't work as a team of Adam Dunns. You can't win with a team of Dave Kingman because its all solo HRs. But with the OBP, a team of Adam Dunns scores 5+ runs a game. (Not talking defense here obviously).
According to baseball musings lineup tool, a full lineup of Adam Dunn would score just a hair over 6 runs a game. A full lineup of Bernie Williams would also score just a hair over 6 runs a game.
I think the "great pitcher" would have an easier time with the Adam Dunn lineup than the Bernie Williams lineup.  And in a big spot, you can bet your *** I'd prefer Bernie over AD.  
12/5/2013 12:10 PM
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Bernie or Edgar? Topic

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