I don't have time to do the research, but I think you would find that if you listed the OFers in RM's era who were better than him, and did the same with BW, that the number would be similar. Average single season production, that is, as we all agree that BWs career is clearly superior.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2013 12:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mfahie on 12/5/2013 11:57:00 AM (view original):
Dunn may be extreme, but I disagree that he wouldn't work as a team of Adam Dunns. You can't win with a team of Dave Kingman because its all solo HRs. But with the OBP, a team of Adam Dunns scores 5+ runs a game. (Not talking defense here obviously).

Speaking of......Kingman and Robin Yount both had an OPS+ of 115.     Does that sound right?

During Yount's 10 year peak, his OPS+ was 135.  Kingman's was 120.  Yount's longevity helped him made the HOF, but hurts him with rate stats.

Rick Monday's greatest moment:

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2013 12:00:00 PM (view original):
When a stat says AD, BW and RM were/are similar, the stat needs to be questioned. 

The fact of the matter is I like OPS and OPS+.    But I'm not sure it's a good tool to compare players' value. 

Adam Dunn and Bernie Williams certainly weren't similar players.  But they accomplished similar things when it came to generating runs.

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2013 12:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2013 12:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mfahie on 12/5/2013 11:57:00 AM (view original):
Dunn may be extreme, but I disagree that he wouldn't work as a team of Adam Dunns. You can't win with a team of Dave Kingman because its all solo HRs. But with the OBP, a team of Adam Dunns scores 5+ runs a game. (Not talking defense here obviously).

Speaking of......Kingman and Robin Yount both had an OPS+ of 115.     Does that sound right?

During Yount's 10 year peak, his OPS+ was 135.  Kingman's was 120.  Yount's longevity helped him made the HOF, but hurts him with rate stats.

That really doesn't answer the question.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2013 12:14:00 PM (view original):
Rick Monday's greatest moment:

That and 1981 vs Montreal.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2013 12:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mfahie on 12/5/2013 11:57:00 AM (view original):
Dunn may be extreme, but I disagree that he wouldn't work as a team of Adam Dunns. You can't win with a team of Dave Kingman because its all solo HRs. But with the OBP, a team of Adam Dunns scores 5+ runs a game. (Not talking defense here obviously).

Speaking of......Kingman and Robin Yount both had an OPS+ of 115.     Does that sound right?

It does. Yount's OBP was 40 points better than Kingman's and Kingman's SLG was 48 points better than Yount.

You are pointing out a flaw in OPS. It weighs OBP and SLG the same and they shouldn't be weighed equally. A better calculation is OBP*1.8 + SLG.

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2013 12:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2013 12:00:00 PM (view original):
When a stat says AD, BW and RM were/are similar, the stat needs to be questioned. 

The fact of the matter is I like OPS and OPS+.    But I'm not sure it's a good tool to compare players' value. 

Adam Dunn and Bernie Williams certainly weren't similar players.  But they accomplished similar things when it came to generating runs.

Not necessarily.    They had a similar OBP+SLG.  

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2013 12:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2013 12:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mfahie on 12/5/2013 11:57:00 AM (view original):
Dunn may be extreme, but I disagree that he wouldn't work as a team of Adam Dunns. You can't win with a team of Dave Kingman because its all solo HRs. But with the OBP, a team of Adam Dunns scores 5+ runs a game. (Not talking defense here obviously).

According to baseball musings lineup tool, a full lineup of Adam Dunn would score just a hair over 6 runs a game. A full lineup of Bernie Williams would also score just a hair over 6 runs a game.

I think the "great pitcher" would have an easier time with the Adam Dunn lineup than the Bernie Williams lineup.  And in a big spot, you can bet your *** I'd prefer Bernie over AD.  

In his prime, Dunn got on base a ton. That faded when he couldn't make contact anymore but he was far from an easy out in his late 20's. I agree though, I'd rather have Bernie Williams in his prime over Adam Dunn in his.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2013 12:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2013 12:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2013 12:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mfahie on 12/5/2013 11:57:00 AM (view original):
Dunn may be extreme, but I disagree that he wouldn't work as a team of Adam Dunns. You can't win with a team of Dave Kingman because its all solo HRs. But with the OBP, a team of Adam Dunns scores 5+ runs a game. (Not talking defense here obviously).

Speaking of......Kingman and Robin Yount both had an OPS+ of 115.     Does that sound right?

During Yount's 10 year peak, his OPS+ was 135.  Kingman's was 120.  Yount's longevity helped him made the HOF, but hurts him with rate stats.

That really doesn't answer the question.

OK.

No, it doesn't sound right.  To make any judgement based on only 1 stat is foolish.  

I will say this - Bernie's peak was better than anything Monday did.  Bernie was a better player.  Monday got better when relegated to part time duty late in his career, as odd as that sounds.  A small concession for you.  That said, Monday was closer to Bernie than Bernie was to Edgar, offensively.

Bernie's 6 year peak - a 146 OPS+.  Damn good.

This is an interesting article about situational use of of AVG/OBP/SLG.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/avgobpslg-in-an-age-of-woba/

Hehe.   You'll love this.   About 3/4 of the way thru I thought "Who cares?  Baseball is a simple game about moving a piece thru 4 stations before 3 mistakes force you start over." 

Statnerds overcomplicate it.    Although, to be fair, I do agree that a HR does have pretty much the same value as three singles.    Seems like it's harder to string together three singles by three different players before 3 mistakes are made but three singles in the given frame of three out will likely net the same result:   One piece moved thru 4 stations.   And that's the ultimate goal.

Growing up in the Bay Area, I remember Rick Monday being a pretty good ballplayer for the A's.  Certainly some of the Bernie love is attached to his uniform.  If he piled up similar stats for the Royals, he'd just be Amos Otis.  It's the same guilt-by-association that makes Donnie Baseball a HOFer in some eyes.

I have trouble reading these articles.  ADD or something.

I just think they're kind of boring. 

FYI, I do not think Donnie Baseball is a HOFer.   But I have two signed baseball and a signed photo in my office.