All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > Job logic: why HD is terminally ill
12/18/2013 8:50 PM
Posted by terps21234 on 12/18/2013 10:09:00 AM (view original):
Posted by dcy0827 on 12/17/2013 3:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by rsvphr on 12/17/2013 8:27:00 AM (view original):
Girt, you really think I'm not qualified for an A prestige program that has been to the NT 2 or 3 times in the last 30 seasons? In the real world that school would be recruiting me! I guess the Butler coach going to the BOSTON CELTICS was a result of him not qualifying for a A+ prestige job in D1.

I appreciate your evaluation  of my resume. It is that perspective that is going to send me back to D2 before the Big East is half sim.

As someone who has played at, and won at, the highest levels of D1, my opinion is that your resume should be fully qualified to get you accepted to any school with an open coaching position in that world.
Don't care that you won at the elite level. Listening to people like you about job hiring makes absolutely NO SENSE.  You state"fully qualified", HOW THE HELL IS A SIM FULLY QUALIFIED OVER A HUMAN WITH A GOOD RESUME.  NOBODY will tell me or give me any proof that a SIM coached team is more qualified than a GOOD human coach. Not a ****** human a GOOD human coach.  So once again nobody on any of these forums has proven why the hiring logic is OK for elite programs.  WHY? because nobody can because it's not.  I call bullshit.
terps, this is dcy's statement, not mine per your other post, but I agree with him anyway.

No one has ever suggested that a sim is more qualified. That is not the argument.

The argument is that the top programs have certain barriers for entry that need to be met, and I believe that's a good thing. If there are no coaches out there in a given season who both want to move and can meet that threshold, then so be it. The elites will get taken. That is not a worry.

12/18/2013 8:54 PM
Posted by rsvphr on 12/17/2013 8:27:00 AM (view original):
Girt, you really think I'm not qualified for an A prestige program that has been to the NT 2 or 3 times in the last 30 seasons? In the real world that school would be recruiting me! I guess the Butler coach going to the BOSTON CELTICS was a result of him not qualifying for a A+ prestige job in D1.

I appreciate your evaluation  of my resume. It is that perspective that is going to send me back to D2 before the Big East is half sim.

It doesn't matter what that school has done in the last 30 seasons. It matters what their prestige is.

It's also terribly misguided to try to make direct real world comparisons, for a million different reasons, some of which have already been pointed out by others in this thread since you made your comment. Suggesting as much indicates that you don't really comprehend the intrinsic difference between the real life jobs process and the HD jobs process. Like virtually every part of HD, they've taken real life but made lots of changes that they considered to be prudent. The two are different enough where attempting to make an apples-to-apples comparison is an exercise in futility.

Again, I don't think that the process is perfect. And as I stated in my original post, I rather urgently think they need to change how mid-DI teams are treated. But while the process with elites isn't perfect, it's not irreperably damaged in any sense, and I think the high barriers to entry for top programs are both good and necessary.

12/18/2013 9:06 PM
I don't like the cap idea as if someone wants to camp, should be their right. My money is on that making changes to increase upward mobility would clear out many of the long timers who are using system advantages to remain successful. I also wonder if anyone who thinks the job process is not broken has dealt with the current situation or basing their opinion on their own experiences years ago?
12/18/2013 9:20 PM
girt, I do agree that the A+ universe is a different animal. And we concur that the mid major situation is the most in need of overhaul. However, the lack of firings and overly restrictive advancement criteria below them makes D1 advancement look hopeless. And the reality is that season in and season out, we bleed D1 coaches. My fear is that combined with the shrinking D3 population, we are going to eventually implode.

BTW, valid point about overdoing comparisons with real life.

12/18/2013 9:34 PM
Really dude? I’m sorry but if at any time an "Elite" has a sim coaching it this game has fcking failed in a big way. Personally I don't think any of the games WIS has should have a hard coded advantage to any team. They should adopt the GD model sans the elite logic.

The fact that the ACC is so highly overrated in this game is insane. That conference has never been anything more than Duke and North Carolina when it comes to basketball. You had your one hit wonder programs but that is about it. GD failed when it decided to hard code certain Big 6 teams with insane advantages. The same can be said for what HD as done. Both games do not represent reality well in anyway, why in the hell should any team automatically be crowned king?

It’s an online game if I want to pick up Georgia and turn them into a powerhouse I should have the ability to do so on a level playing field with every Big 6 team. The way this game is created that is not so, no matter what I do my Georgia team will never be North Carolina no matter how much I win.  I wish there was a game out there that merged what the Graydog Software products stand for with the WIS interface. That would truly be an unstoppable force in the sports simulation world. You set teams up with prestige ratings that do not have any baseline and then let the PAYING PLAYERS do the rest. If North Carolina is average for five seasons then so will there prestige rating and it will take them as much work to back to elite as any other team.

Hiring and Prestige logic in all WIS products are crap. But they will never be overhauled as they don’t have the balls to make a change to better the game. I have been playing these games for years and just accepted the fact that the game will never change.
12/18/2013 9:55 PM
Posted by tkimble on 12/17/2013 11:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by monmouth11 on 12/17/2013 9:44:00 PM (view original):

Most recent updates, changes and improvements

Changes within the last 90 days...

There are no Hoops Dynasty updates for the past 90 days. (probably more like 180)

The job logic is obviously ridiculous.  but based on the amount of work being done to attend to this game I think we are venting on deaf ears. 
 


That's actually something I like to see.  Unless they're fixing major problems, I don't want to see them screwing around trying to change things all the time. 
I'm not even sure they're monitoring the game to know if there is a major problem that needs fixing.  The minute you stop improving, you start dying.
12/19/2013 12:39 AM
Posted by rsvphr on 12/18/2013 9:20:00 PM (view original):
girt, I do agree that the A+ universe is a different animal. And we concur that the mid major situation is the most in need of overhaul. However, the lack of firings and overly restrictive advancement criteria below them makes D1 advancement look hopeless. And the reality is that season in and season out, we bleed D1 coaches. My fear is that combined with the shrinking D3 population, we are going to eventually implode.

BTW, valid point about overdoing comparisons with real life.

Do you have any data to support the "bleed D1 coaches" statement? Someone mentioned some great loss of D1 coaches about 6 months ago and I looked at the numbers and saw an increase in four out of the six worlds I had information on.

I think any changes to the job process logic for the Big 6 conferences are  unnecessary. Those conferences are generally 90%+ filled.

The job firing process on the other hand, is absurd.
12/19/2013 1:46 AM
Posted by coachhaskins on 12/18/2013 9:34:00 PM (view original):
Really dude? I’m sorry but if at any time an "Elite" has a sim coaching it this game has fcking failed in a big way. Personally I don't think any of the games WIS has should have a hard coded advantage to any team. They should adopt the GD model sans the elite logic.

The fact that the ACC is so highly overrated in this game is insane. That conference has never been anything more than Duke and North Carolina when it comes to basketball. You had your one hit wonder programs but that is about it. GD failed when it decided to hard code certain Big 6 teams with insane advantages. The same can be said for what HD as done. Both games do not represent reality well in anyway, why in the hell should any team automatically be crowned king?

It’s an online game if I want to pick up Georgia and turn them into a powerhouse I should have the ability to do so on a level playing field with every Big 6 team. The way this game is created that is not so, no matter what I do my Georgia team will never be North Carolina no matter how much I win.  I wish there was a game out there that merged what the Graydog Software products stand for with the WIS interface. That would truly be an unstoppable force in the sports simulation world. You set teams up with prestige ratings that do not have any baseline and then let the PAYING PLAYERS do the rest. If North Carolina is average for five seasons then so will there prestige rating and it will take them as much work to back to elite as any other team.

Hiring and Prestige logic in all WIS products are crap. But they will never be overhauled as they don’t have the balls to make a change to better the game. I have been playing these games for years and just accepted the fact that the game will never change.
This^^^
12/19/2013 7:04 AM
+1. Especially when u pay to play and the winner receives $
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12/19/2013 4:41 PM
dcy, you get it. There should be nothing B and under that you couldn't get with that resume, in  my opinion. At the very least a top of the line mid major.
12/20/2013 12:27 AM
Posted by rsvphr on 12/19/2013 4:41:00 PM (view original):
dcy, you get it. There should be nothing B and under that you couldn't get with that resume, in  my opinion. At the very least a top of the line mid major.
I've long thought that the hiring/firing part of this game was probably the most messed up of all.  Coaches who *should* be qualified aren't and the school ends up going Sim, coaches with worse resumes beat out coaches with better ones for jobs, firings, well firings are just a disaster all the way around, etc. and so on.

My opinion for a long, long time has been that if the hiring standards are changed (and they really need to be), then firings need to be ramped up also.  Keep the firings at D1 only, but if a coach isn't doing the job, he's got to go.  Elites should be easier to get fired from than "normal" BCS schools, normal BCS schools easier to get fired from than mid-majors, mid-majors easier than low majors.  Coaches should know going in that if they intend to move up to D1 then they better have their **** together, otherwise it's back to D2 you go.  I believe Seble has stated that he's worried about ******* off long time customers, but what of the long time customers whose dream job is tied down by some less than mediocre coach whose only saving grace is that he made the PIT 23 seasons ago.  This is a competitive game and if those coaches aren't able to compete and hold their own, then it's time for them to get the axe and let someone else have a shot at it.  Just my two cents.

(This is Dcy by the way, logged in under my other ID.  Sorry if there was any confusion).
12/20/2013 1:03 AM
I have to echo the mid-major thing is more troubling to me.  And that if elite hirings were revamped then firings would have to be too.  As it is, it takes six years of missing the post-season to be fired.  And I'm not even sure if that applies exactly when you take over a program, or if the 6-year clock starts ticking only after you've gotten a couple years to recruit.  At any rate, it seems reasonable to me that an elite would "wait until next year" than sign someone, who may be under-qualified, to a six-year deal.  (That said, reasonable minds can disagree about where the "qualified" line should be drawn.)
12/20/2013 6:44 AM
Under current standards, an elite job is a job for life. The new business model is becoming schedule 10 NC cookies, win 4 conference games and get your NT spot. In the ACC, you can't avoid making the PI. We have 10-17 elites getting to the PI.

Your A+ should be reduced if you have ONE losing season, miss the NT twice in 4 seasons, don't make an Elite 8 in 5 seasons. PI should mean nothing in the firing process at any A-, A or A+ level. For A- and A, it would be a matter of how generous you want it to be along the same structure. And if you win less than 16 games for 3 straight years, that could also fit into the equation.

The firing threshold could be tied to prestige decline if a structure is in place. For the elite, if you decline from A+ to A, you're fired if you don't regain your A+ in, say, 4 seasons or, if you decline further.  A scale could be developed for every grade level. Shoot, D's shouldn't be fired unless they have 6-8 losing seasons in a row.

Am I off base here? Throw some suggestions on top of this. And if it sucks, say so.






12/20/2013 3:31 PM
I can't say much about how prestige should factor into the picture since I'm not a D1 coach, but IMO the PIT should mean jack if you're at a BCS conference job. Now maybe that needs to be translated to "conference with such and such prestige" to account for the new BCS conferences that folks have created in a couple worlds. And the best of the best should definitely have even higher standards. I'm not sure exactly what those would be. Maybe five years without a Sweet Sixteen at an A+ prestige school? Are those realistic standards?
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