ESPN HOF ballot revealed. Topic

MikeT23
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Posted by bad_luck on 1/9/2014 6:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/9/2014 6:14:00 PM (view original):
OK, all are within the "meaningless" range of WAR with Raines(and above Biggio).  I haven't checked but I'm sure WR was the only one who stole bases(I'm not sure he was very good at it).   So, in all likelihood, they were given huge boosts with dWAR.     So is dWAR useless or not?
"Meaningless" range of WAR?

If you don't buy into WAR, you don't have a meaningless range. It's all meaningless. 

Sure.   I'm arguing on your home field so I'm using WAR.   I'm ignoring dWAR because we know it's bullshit(I assumed that list of guys well within the "insignificant" 30% range of Raines would have been good enough for you to agree) and am dying to hear how bWAR is calculated. 

Anyway, those 5 guys are between Raines and Biggio in WAR(which includes all manners of WAR).  Shouldn't you throw an imaginary vote at all of them?
1/10/2014 7:00 AM
bad_luck
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Why would that make me throw a vote at them?

Where do you keep coming up with this 30% range?
1/10/2014 10:12 AM
MikeT23
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WAR seems to be your barometer.   And they have similar or higher WAR to Raines/Biggio.

The 30% comes from another thread where you claimed the difference between 3.1 and 3.8(or something along that line) was "insignificant".  Don't ask me that question again because I've answered it half a dozen times already.    Stop acting like you don't know.
1/10/2014 10:53 AM
bad_luck
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You shouldn't be using 30% then, because that's not what I was saying. I said you should round off the decimal. In each situation that will be a different percentage. It could be as high as 100%, as it is with 2013 David Freese and Alberto Callaspo or lower than 0.1%, as it is with Rickey Henderson's and Tom Seaver's career WAR.

Please confirm that you understand so that we can stop referring to "30%."

Regarding Raines and Biggio, WAR isn't everything. Stop acting like anyone ever insisted it was.
1/10/2014 11:16 AM (edited)
cobra
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I'm sorry I'm late to the party.
BL, are you using JAWS to say mussina is superior to Morris?
1/10/2014 8:26 PM
bad_luck
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I'm using ERA, WHIP, ERA+, WAR...****, even wins if those mean anything to you. Mussina was significantly better than Morris. I'd argue he was better than Glavine, too.
1/10/2014 10:09 PM
rsp777
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Neither Morris nor Mussina belong in the hall. Maddux and, less certainly, Glavine, both deserved it. Mussina was better than Morris overall, even though Morris was the better "Big-Game" pitcher, but neither of them really belong in the HOF. Biggio will get in next year, but he's actually about as deserving as Lofton and I would NOT vote for him. I think he's a bit above KL, but not by much. I don't think either of them belong, though 3,000 hits is a LOT OF ******* HITS. I just don't see Biggio as HOF. Kent was a better producer while Biggio is a bit of a "compiler".

1/11/2014 1:34 AM
The Taint
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Eh...I started to look at Biggio's stats to refute that, but that's pretty spot on.  A whole lotta love for a pretty iffy guy.  I guess it's the 3,000 hits.

1/11/2014 2:17 AM
The Taint
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Man, Kent just screams juicer.
1/11/2014 2:18 AM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 1/10/2014 10:09:00 PM (view original):
I'm using ERA, WHIP, ERA+, WAR...****, even wins if those mean anything to you. Mussina was significantly better than Morris. I'd argue he was better than Glavine, too.
Glavine was better than Mussina at getting elected to the HOF.  You can't argue that.
1/11/2014 8:58 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by rsp777 on 1/11/2014 1:34:00 AM (view original):

Neither Morris nor Mussina belong in the hall. Maddux and, less certainly, Glavine, both deserved it. Mussina was better than Morris overall, even though Morris was the better "Big-Game" pitcher, but neither of them really belong in the HOF. Biggio will get in next year, but he's actually about as deserving as Lofton and I would NOT vote for him. I think he's a bit above KL, but not by much. I don't think either of them belong, though 3,000 hits is a LOT OF ******* HITS. I just don't see Biggio as HOF. Kent was a better producer while Biggio is a bit of a "compiler".

Mussina has a better ERA+ and WHIP than Glavine. Glavine has about 800 more innings. It's really close but I'd probably take Mussina. And anyway, if they're that close there's no reason that one should be in without the other.
1/11/2014 10:33 AM
masterdebate
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I'd have to agree with bad_luck here. Glavine and Mussina should either both be in or both be out. I wonder if Moose gets hurt because he never had that signature game, like Glavine's one hitter against the Indians in the Series or because he didn't reach 300 wins.
1/11/2014 10:39 AM
tecwrg
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Glavine had five 20 win seasons.  Mussina had only one, in his final season.

Glavine also had 2 CY awards, and finished 2nd or 3rd four other times.  Mussina only had one top 3 finish.

Those are meaningful differences between the two.
1/11/2014 11:08 AM
masterdebate
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Sure. Mussina also pitched for the Orioles in his prime. In the ten seasons there, they won half their games only 5 times, thus limiting his chances at 20 wins. He also was matched up against other teams best pitchers, further limiting his wins, which also would impact his ability to win Cy Young awards. He also has a better win pct than Glavine, and especially with the O's, a much better win pct than his teams. Other than wins for Glavine, neither pitcher really led his league in anything. era+ once for Glavine, shutouts once for Mussina, a few other random things.
1/11/2014 11:28 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 1/11/2014 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Glavine had five 20 win seasons.  Mussina had only one, in his final season.

Glavine also had 2 CY awards, and finished 2nd or 3rd four other times.  Mussina only had one top 3 finish.

Those are meaningful differences between the two.
20 wins is arbitrary. Mussina won 17 or more games 8 times. Glavine did it 6 times.

And anyway, the pitcher win/loss stat is useless.
1/11/2014 1:50 PM
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