To my understanding, speed = TO's  maybe even more fouls committed against. I've always been an ATH first type of coach, but now as I search for more understanding of the sim, I have started looking more into the effects of elite speed. If I recruite a lineup with the listed speed what type of production should I expect? Is there a cap on the effectiveness of speed in the FC? I know press teams really thrive on speed but would other defensive sets benefit from elite speed? Thanks in advance for any assistance.

         SPD

PG - 90+
SG - 85+
SF - 75+
PF - 70+
C -   50+

The problem with this plan is that the other def sets rely to a much larger extent than FCP on reducing opponents' FG%. The result is, or should be, more Def Reb opportunities. There is almost always a trade-off between SPD and REB (smaller players tend to have higher SPD / BH and lower REB / SB). So, your high speed team is probably going to struggle to rebound. In the press, that's fine, because the speed is going to lead to more turnovers forced. But, in other def sets, my guess is that you are going to give up a lot of offensive rebounds, which typically result in high %age shots for your opponent.

Speed in the front court certainly helps.  How much is debated.  I think, one point in Reb (or defense, or ath) is probably worth a more than 4 points of speed.

Personally, I think speed for the PF/C is virtually useless unless:

You play FB/FCP

or

You are an elite D1 program.


For example, I would rather have a 60 ATH 10 SPD 80 REB center than a 60 ATH 50 SPEED  70 REB  center.


I'd take the 2nd guy on a FB team but not for any other.

Also, finding guys with high speed with a high enough REB is kinda hard.

If you would truly say that 1 Reb = 4 SP, then the two centers should be valued exactly equally (ceteris paribus, of course), because you gave up 10 points in Reb for 40 points in speed.

Thanks for pointing that out.  I added "more than " to the sentence.

I think BillyG once said that it was around 1 to 10, and I had initially written that but when I started looking at the #'s I didn't like how they played out.   

After putting in more thought, the effect of speed probably isn't really linear.  All centers with a speed between 1-30 are probably pretty much the same since the value in the equation is so low.   I would suspect you don't REALLY start to see the effects of speed until it is significantly higher than the mean.    At D3, it's probably somewhere around 50.

With all that being said, I would probably rather have 60/50/70 guy but not the 60/30/75 guy.


I should also point out I am totally hypothesising. I don't have any data to back this up other than my fuzzy memory of player performance.

Posted by stevejones16 on 1/31/2014 12:51:00 PM (view original):
The problem with this plan is that the other def sets rely to a much larger extent than FCP on reducing opponents' FG%. The result is, or should be, more Def Reb opportunities. There is almost always a trade-off between SPD and REB (smaller players tend to have higher SPD / BH and lower REB / SB). So, your high speed team is probably going to struggle to rebound. In the press, that's fine, because the speed is going to lead to more turnovers forced. But, in other def sets, my guess is that you are going to give up a lot of offensive rebounds, which typically result in high %age shots for your opponent.

There may be some tradeoff rebounding wise - but assume there isn't. Let's say I recruited some speedy SF's with the RB potential of FC players yet still have G/SF speed - I'm wondering if there is some team element to speed here - some averaging factor like there is for passing for instance. If you have a lineup where your overall speed is overwhelmingly better than your opponent - I wonder if there is some advantage there - if anyone has ever noticed. If not I guess I'll try it out and see what happens.

Take a look at LSU in Smith last season.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/31/2014 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Thanks for pointing that out.  I added "more than " to the sentence.

I think BillyG once said that it was around 1 to 10, and I had initially written that but when I started looking at the #'s I didn't like how they played out.   

After putting in more thought, the effect of speed probably isn't really linear.  All centers with a speed between 1-30 are probably pretty much the same since the value in the equation is so low.   I would suspect you don't REALLY start to see the effects of speed until it is significantly higher than the mean.    At D3, it's probably somewhere around 50.

With all that being said, I would probably rather have 60/50/70 guy but not the 60/30/75 guy.


I should also point out I am totally hypothesising. I don't have any data to back this up other than my fuzzy memory of player performance.

Understood.


I think I'd rather have the 60/50/70 guy as well- I guess just thinking logically and not according to how the engine operates (as if I knew how it operates) - seems that speed should provide some benefit overall across the board. If matchups work individually and I have a PF with 75 speed 80 ath going against a PF with 20 speed and 80 ath - I would expect to dominate that matchup - I'd expect to cause TO's or increase fouls committed against - something, but who knows.

Posted by dave64g on 1/31/2014 2:42:00 PM (view original):
Take a look at LSU in Smith last season.

I wish I could lol. If there's a way to do it I don't know how. I don't have a team in Smith.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/31/2014 1:41:00 PM (view original):
Speed in the front court certainly helps.  How much is debated.  I think, one point in Reb (or defense, or ath) is probably worth a more than 4 points of speed.

Personally, I think speed for the PF/C is virtually useless unless:

You play FB/FCP

or

You are an elite D1 program.


For example, I would rather have a 60 ATH 10 SPD 80 REB center than a 60 ATH 50 SPEED  70 REB  center.


I'd take the 2nd guy on a FB team but not for any other.

Also, finding guys with high speed with a high enough REB is kinda hard.

No, no, no, no.  If I have the choice between the 60/10/80 guy and the 60/50/70 guy, I take the second guy 11 times out of 10 and twice more on Sundays.  Contrary to popular opinion, speed is not useless on big men.  It's more important for guards for obvious reasons), but it's definitely not useless for bigs. 

**Edit** Oops, didn't see where you had changed your mind a little later in the thread.  Probably helps to read the whole thing before commenting.  Sorry.

emy, can you elaborate on HOW speed is useful to bigs? we know its 100% useless for rebounding, and im pretty confident it does very little on defense. i certainly could be wrong, but offense is the one area i could see speed mattering in a substantial way, but still far in the shadow of ath/lp. i feel the same way coming from a press perspective - i don't value speed in my bigs even playing press. so what is it that speed makes better? fg% defense, steals, increased fg%, drawing fouls, what?

for the record, i would not even think twice before taking the first guy, with the +10 reb and -40 speed. with that athleticism, this guy isn't going to be a scorer, and so i don't even think there is need for a second thought. now if you are going to ask me with a guy with 80-100 ath and lp caps, would i give up that 10 rebounding for the 40 speed... no, i still wouldn't, but i'd at least have to think about it. give him some per and bh and you might actually get me to take the speed - the one and only place i actually think you can see speed helping bigs (meaning its important enough to detect with your eyes, not with a regression analysis tool), is in terms of jump shooting (leading to increased fg%).

If this game was programmed to simulate the game of basketball, speed should not be useless for rebounding or defense.

It's not used in the rebounding equation.  That was clearly answered in a developer chat.

Posted by rednation58 on 1/31/2014 12:24:00 PM (view original):
To my understanding, speed = TO's  maybe even more fouls committed against. I've always been an ATH first type of coach, but now as I search for more understanding of the sim, I have started looking more into the effects of elite speed. If I recruite a lineup with the listed speed what type of production should I expect? Is there a cap on the effectiveness of speed in the FC? I know press teams really thrive on speed but would other defensive sets benefit from elite speed? Thanks in advance for any assistance.

         SPD

PG - 90+
SG - 85+
SF - 75+
PF - 70+
C -   50+

to the original questions... first, is there a cap on the effectiveness of speed in the FCP, its not a simple answer, but if i had to give a simple answer, id say no. not at the positions where speed matters, anyway. having as much speed as possible at the 1-3 in press is awesome, and i don't think you hit an area of "diminishing returns". the one thing i have long wondered about is the 4. i dont see speed at the 4 helping my team, and im almost positive at the 5 does not. but i also wouldn't be surprised if there was a team-wide turnover generating ability equation that played into the press. because i value speed at the 1, 2, and 3 above all else on my press teams, maybe i did hit a ceiling of diminishing returns, making speed at the 4 and 5 useless. what i am pretty confident of is, on my best teams, having elite turnover creating abilities at the 1-3 resulted in basically just as good of a team as having it at the 4-5. but i cannot by logical extension rule out speed mattering at the 4, and maybe even slightly at the 5, for teams without elite speed at the 1, 2, and 3. 

we know now rebounding has a team rebounding methodology, and i think there is good reason to believe a team stealing methodology could explain the results we see from press teams. by that logic, i'd expect the 4 and 5 to contribute, just much less than the 3, which is much less than the 1 and 2, just like rebounding (in reverse). however, i have come to love high rebounding guards, they are my favorite type of players - but largely that came out of my love of speed and guard skills at the 3 for my press teams, in the olden days. meanwhile, i have no love for speed at the 4-5, i frankly don't give a damn what the speed is of my bigs, except when considering if they could play SF for me should i fall into a situation where i am heavy on bigs. too many times if had single digit bigs perform at the top of big man performance, to really believe its important. however, i have learned i under valued per, and with it, bh, and by extension also speed, in terms of generating offense for big men. i think that is a by product of the types of bigs i used early in my career when i really paid attention to this stuff, now i have shifted from calling per, bh, and spd useless, to moderately useful for offense oriented bigs (and roughly useless otherwise).

in other sets than FCP, i think speed does increase turnovers some, but not nearly to the extent in the press. i think speed is more important as a component of defensive ability, than important in its own right. for example, taking a 95 ath/def 75 speed guard in d1 on a m2m team, up to 95 speed, i don't think it really buys you anything (on defense). however, if you have a 70 ath/spd/def guard in d1, going up to 95 speed is really important, it can take this player from unplayable, to playable (assuming hes got the goods offensively). so, in short, if you have the ath/def, i dont think you really need the elite guard speed, not on defense.

however, on offense, speed is one of the most important stats in guard jump shooting, and also is important in drawing fouls for driving guards/sfs. so i think it is pretty damn useful on the offensive front, even outside press. the basis for my great teams of old was that speed was both insanely valuable defensively in press, and insanely valuable on offense in any offense, especially if you shoot lots of 3s. of course, there were many other principles to how i built my team, but that synergy of speed being so valuable in 3pt shooting and in the press (for turnovers) was by far away the biggest driver of how i built my teams in those days.

"so, in short, if you have the ath/def, i dont think you really need the elite guard speed, not on defense."

I think you do.....I'll post some #'s tonight.