Honestly, Biggio is the based comp I could make for Jeter.  Biggio had a little more power, walked more, stole more bases, but he hit a little less.  Overall offensive value was similar.  Career length was fairly similar.  Biggio's peak was probably a little better, Jeter was stronger into his mid-30s.  Both of them played generally below-average defense at challenging positions; Biggio's defense was better, but still not good.

Re: Trammell and Jeter - I'd argue their peaks were similar.  Trammell's best 5 year peak was 83-88.  129 OPS+.  I picked 5 years because it favors Trammell, and Jeter was very consistent and had a longer peak.  His best 5 year peak is actually hard to pinpoint.  But its 98-02, and he has an 129 OPS+.  Same thing.

If you want to look at "best singular 5 years?" OPS+ of 155, 138, 138, 138, 136 for Trammell.  Jeter gets 153, 132, 128, 127, 125.  So Trammell gets that, but he only has 7 full seasons over 100. 7 seasons of above league average hitting? Doesn't sound like a HOFer. Jeter had his 7th at age 28.

So you can make the argument that Trammell had better "great" seasons, but Jeter had MANY more "very good" seasons.  He had a better career.

As far as defense goes, I don't know how you know there's "no comparison" as far as defense goes.  Obviously Trammell is going to be better than Jeter, but I doubt he was Ozzie out there.

Jeter was definitely better offensively. But he was bad on defense, to the point that it's a strike against him. Trammell was very, very good on defense, at least according to the stats we have available.

Posted by MikeT23 on 9/25/2014 3:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 3:20:00 PM (view original):
I think the Biggio comparison is legit. Just look at the numbers, and he played difficult defensive positions. The Trammell one is kinda silly.

Not really.

Jeter is better in all the averages.  Biggio played in Houston.   Jeter played in NY.    If you don't believe in the "fish bowl" effect, I'm not going to convince you that there's a difference.   Also, to me, the quality of the teams around them matter.   For much of Biggio's career, Houston wasn't a factor.   Thus one could wonder how hard, if at all, Houston went about upgrading the team.   Maybe NY never considered replacing/moving Jeter.   Maybe he was the position they said "Doesn't matter.  Jeter plays SS."  I might even agree since I've said "Yeah, the Yanks would have came in first a lot more with Jeter playing LF" more than once.   But then you compare post-season success/failure.  Biggio stunk in the 6 seasons Houston made the playoffs.   Jeter maintained/improved his averages in the post-season.  I think both compiled some numbers.   Jeter compiled more in a tougher enviroment and didn't shrink in the playoffs.  Finally, and I've mentioned this several times before, there's the "fame" part in the HOF.   Biggio could eat lunch anywhere he wanted and go unnoticed outside of Houston.    What bumfuck city would Jeter go unnoticed in?  

Fish bowl effect is included in OPS+, and the numbers are 115 for Jeter and 112 for Biggio.  So it's still pretty close.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "maintained/improved his averages in the post-season."  That's just a popular Yankee-fanboy myth that I would have expected you to be above.  Jeter's career postseason AVG and OBP are lower than his regular season numbers, albeit by narrow margins.  And there's no point commenting on Biggio's postseason numbers over-much.  I think it's a huge mistake when guys have reputations made or broken on postseason play.  Jeter's actually one of the few big exceptions here.  Almost nobody has anything approaching a statistically significant postseason sample size.  Biggio has under 200 postseason PAs.  That means virtually nothing.  Jeter actually has a season, and it's a pretty damn good season for a SS.  So you can actually count that in his favor.  But I don't think it's fair to knock Biggio for not hitting for 185 postseason PAs.  It's just not enough to matter.

Biggio is a better comp but Trammell's overall value was similar.

FWIW, Biggio is Jeter's #1 comp on Baseball-Reference.  Jeter is Biggio's #2.  So for you to call that comparison "retarded" is pretty damn absurd on your part.

Posted by MikeT23 on 9/25/2014 3:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 3:20:00 PM (view original):
I think the Biggio comparison is legit. Just look at the numbers, and he played difficult defensive positions. The Trammell one is kinda silly.

Not really.

Jeter is better in all the averages.  Biggio played in Houston.   Jeter played in NY.    If you don't believe in the "fish bowl" effect, I'm not going to convince you that there's a difference.   Also, to me, the quality of the teams around them matter.   For much of Biggio's career, Houston wasn't a factor.   Thus one could wonder how hard, if at all, Houston went about upgrading the team.   Maybe NY never considered replacing/moving Jeter.   Maybe he was the position they said "Doesn't matter.  Jeter plays SS."  I might even agree since I've said "Yeah, the Yanks would have came in first a lot more with Jeter playing LF" more than once.   But then you compare post-season success/failure.  Biggio stunk in the 6 seasons Houston made the playoffs.   Jeter maintained/improved his averages in the post-season.  I think both compiled some numbers.   Jeter compiled more in a tougher enviroment and didn't shrink in the playoffs.  Finally, and I've mentioned this several times before, there's the "fame" part in the HOF.   Biggio could eat lunch anywhere he wanted and go unnoticed outside of Houston.    What bumfuck city would Jeter go unnoticed in?  

Jeter is more famous because he played in NY.  I think the original argument was "Jeter is Biggio if he played in Houston" which is probably true.  If you switched them, maybe Biggio is revered like Jeter.

Yes, Biggio shrunk in the playoffs, fair.

Jeter is better in all the averages, but barely. They're so similar. Biggio had a higher extra-base hit % than Jeter.  I imagine Jeter's stats would look a lot like Biggio if he wasn't so good at the soft liner to right, and tried to drive the ball more.  They both stole some bases too.  To argue they aren't similar stat-wise is foolish.

Posted by bad_luck on 9/25/2014 3:47:00 PM (view original):
Biggio is a better comp but Trammell's overall value was similar.

I disagree, obviously.  Maybe through age 30 of both their careers.

And I'd argue 185 PAs is enough to make an argument.  I know it's not the biggest sample, but it's significant.  Even if you're unlucky, you didn't produce, and are one of the reasons why your team was not successful.

Trammell is not good enough to compare to Jeter.

Use Larkin instead.

Posted by dahsdebater on 9/25/2014 3:51:00 PM (view original):
Trammell is not good enough to compare to Jeter.

Use Larkin instead.

Just flipped over to Jaffe's Jaws SS rankings. He has Trammell ranked ahead of both Jeter and Larkin.

Obviously, I disagree with both you and Jaffe.

I like the Larkin comp better.

I was just using OPS for Jeter being "better" in the playoffs than the regular season.    But, if you want to argue AVG/OBP was slightly lower while SLG was considerably better, I'd say you're making my point.    Nonetheless, the point stands, IMO.

Agreeing with burnsy, 185 PA is 1/3 of season.    It's not a career but Biggio's post-season numbers are waaaaay off. 

Finally, "retarded" was simply used to aggravate people.   Seems like you'd know by now that exaggeration is part of internet arguing.    Biggio/Jeter are similar enough but one is a HOF lock while the other needs "an argument to be made" for inclusion.   That's where the comparison becomes something slightly less than "retarded" but still somewhat "silly".

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 3:58:00 PM (view original):
Obviously, I disagree with both you and Jaffe.

I like the Larkin comp better.

I think all three are pretty close. Trammell just gets more of his value from defense.

No, Jaffe agrees with me.  

@chrisburnzy yesh, Jeter's D is very costly in JAWS rankings - but I'd consider him a stronger HOF candidate (tho voters screwed Trammell)