Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 3:51:00 PM (view original):
And I'd argue 185 PAs is enough to make an argument.  I know it's not the biggest sample, but it's significant.  Even if you're unlucky, you didn't produce, and are one of the reasons why your team was not successful.

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 4:01:00 PM (view original):
No, Jaffe agrees with me.  

@chrisburnzy yesh, Jeter's D is very costly in JAWS rankings - but I'd consider him a stronger HOF candidate (tho voters screwed Trammell)

Posted by dahsdebater on 9/25/2014 4:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 3:51:00 PM (view original):
And I'd argue 185 PAs is enough to make an argument.  I know it's not the biggest sample, but it's significant.  Even if you're unlucky, you didn't produce, and are one of the reasons why your team was not successful.

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/principles/sample-size/

Posted by bad_luck on 9/25/2014 4:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 4:01:00 PM (view original):
No, Jaffe agrees with me.  

@chrisburnzy yesh, Jeter's D is very costly in JAWS rankings - but I'd consider him a stronger HOF candidate (tho voters screwed Trammell)

I'd consider Jeter a stronger candidate too. I don't think that means they aren't close.

Posted by MikeT23 on 9/25/2014 3:59:00 PM (view original):
I was just using OPS for Jeter being "better" in the playoffs than the regular season.    But, if you want to argue AVG/OBP was slightly lower while SLG was considerably better, I'd say you're making my point.    Nonetheless, the point stands, IMO.

Agreeing with burnsy, 185 PA is 1/3 of season.    It's not a career but Biggio's post-season numbers are waaaaay off. 

Finally, "retarded" was simply used to aggravate people.   Seems like you'd know by now that exaggeration is part of internet arguing.    Biggio/Jeter are similar enough but one is a HOF lock while the other needs "an argument to be made" for inclusion.   That's where the comparison becomes something slightly less than "retarded" but still somewhat "silly".

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 4:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 9/25/2014 4:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 4:01:00 PM (view original):
No, Jaffe agrees with me.  

@chrisburnzy yesh, Jeter's D is very costly in JAWS rankings - but I'd consider him a stronger HOF candidate (tho voters screwed Trammell)

I'd consider Jeter a stronger candidate too. I don't think that means they aren't close.

So if EVERYONE considers Jeter to be a stronger candidate, why is he in the same breath as Trammell? 

Posted by The Taint on 9/25/2014 4:09:00 PM (view original):
Does anyone actually watch baseball anymore? Or is everything supposed to be just looked at by a computer. Who here actually watched Trammel play on a day to say basis? Oh that's right. No one did because he was hurt all the ******* time. That aside how many of you trying to compare Jeter and Trammel, actually saw Trammel play?

Biggio is a better comparison, but it still doesn't even come close. Like Mike said, it's the Hall of Fame. Fame. Great fame comes with great postseason play. Jeter is one of the all-time greatest postseason players. Not include that in his resume is just stupid.

Man, I hate sabermetrics and get off my ******* lawn.

Posted by bad_luck on 9/25/2014 4:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 4:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 9/25/2014 4:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 4:01:00 PM (view original):
No, Jaffe agrees with me.  

@chrisburnzy yesh, Jeter's D is very costly in JAWS rankings - but I'd consider him a stronger HOF candidate (tho voters screwed Trammell)

I'd consider Jeter a stronger candidate too. I don't think that means they aren't close.

So if EVERYONE considers Jeter to be a stronger candidate, why is he in the same breath as Trammell? 

I don't see why that has to be mutually exclusive. Jeter is a better candidate for the Hall but similar in overall value to Trammell.

Tony Gwynn is a better candidate for the Hall but similar in overall value to Tim Raines. Frank Thomas is a better candidate for the Hall but similar in overall value to JIm Thome.

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 4:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 9/25/2014 4:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 4:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 9/25/2014 4:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 4:01:00 PM (view original):
No, Jaffe agrees with me.  

@chrisburnzy yesh, Jeter's D is very costly in JAWS rankings - but I'd consider him a stronger HOF candidate (tho voters screwed Trammell)

I'd consider Jeter a stronger candidate too. I don't think that means they aren't close.

So if EVERYONE considers Jeter to be a stronger candidate, why is he in the same breath as Trammell? 

I don't see why that has to be mutually exclusive. Jeter is a better candidate for the Hall but similar in overall value to Trammell.

Tony Gwynn is a better candidate for the Hall but similar in overall value to Tim Raines. Frank Thomas is a better candidate for the Hall but similar in overall value to JIm Thome.

Nobody thinks Trammell is more worthy than Jeter.  If 2 people are similar in value, there would probably be a decent % of people who would argue for both.  I have a hard time with the argument that the guy who hit above league average 7 times in his career was better than Derek Jeter.

Posted by dahsdebater on 9/25/2014 4:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 9/25/2014 3:59:00 PM (view original):
I was just using OPS for Jeter being "better" in the playoffs than the regular season.    But, if you want to argue AVG/OBP was slightly lower while SLG was considerably better, I'd say you're making my point.    Nonetheless, the point stands, IMO.

Agreeing with burnsy, 185 PA is 1/3 of season.    It's not a career but Biggio's post-season numbers are waaaaay off. 

Finally, "retarded" was simply used to aggravate people.   Seems like you'd know by now that exaggeration is part of internet arguing.    Biggio/Jeter are similar enough but one is a HOF lock while the other needs "an argument to be made" for inclusion.   That's where the comparison becomes something slightly less than "retarded" but still somewhat "silly".

If you need an argument made to you for Biggio in the HOF then maybe you're somewhat silly.  I'm fairly certain that without ballot crowding he'd be in by now, but he should have been first ballot.

Statistically, he is the most similar player to Jeter in the history of the sport.  I don't really care about reputation.  If you want to argue that nobody in the history of baseball is a fair comparison to Jeter, or even less than "silly," fine.  But I think it's an absurd argument.  Jeter wasn't good enough to be above comparison.  In terms of HOF candidacy, as I said recently, I have him 6/7 on the all-time SS list.

1. Wagner
2. Vaughan
3. A-Rod
4. George Davis
5. Larkin
6/7. Jeter/Ripken

Posted by bad_luck on 9/25/2014 4:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 4:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 9/25/2014 4:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 4:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 9/25/2014 4:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/25/2014 4:01:00 PM (view original):
No, Jaffe agrees with me.  

@chrisburnzy yesh, Jeter's D is very costly in JAWS rankings - but I'd consider him a stronger HOF candidate (tho voters screwed Trammell)

I'd consider Jeter a stronger candidate too. I don't think that means they aren't close.

So if EVERYONE considers Jeter to be a stronger candidate, why is he in the same breath as Trammell? 

I don't see why that has to be mutually exclusive. Jeter is a better candidate for the Hall but similar in overall value to Trammell.

Tony Gwynn is a better candidate for the Hall but similar in overall value to Tim Raines. Frank Thomas is a better candidate for the Hall but similar in overall value to JIm Thome.

Nobody thinks Trammell is more worthy than Jeter.  If 2 people are similar in value, there would probably be a decent % of people who would argue for both.  I have a hard time with the argument that the guy who hit above league average 7 times in his career was better than Derek Jeter.

I think we're arguing past each other here. I don't think Trammell was better than Jeter. I don't think anyone does. I do think they are relatively close in overall value which, to me, isn't problematic. Having a consensus on the ranking doesn't require a huge margin.

Jeter was better with the bat (115 OPS+ vs 110 with 3000 more PA) while all the stats we have say Jeter was horrible with the glove and Trammell was excellent. Excellent enough to close most of the gap but not all of it.