All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > Frauds try to be psychologists, fail miserably
2/19/2014 1:50 AM
Posted by artie40 on 2/18/2014 10:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/18/2014 5:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by artie40 on 2/18/2014 3:48:00 PM (view original):
This thread jumped the shark a long time ago...

Needless to say, if ettaexpress continues to play while making such consistent grumblings at perceived anomalies, than more power to him/her (I assume a him, but it's wrong to assume).

The anomalies aren't anomalies. Anything that is mechanical can only produce mechanical results. Each game is won or lost based upon percentages. Any loss in particular can go against what "should" happen, just like any win. Get your team better. Ride out this season before it is better. Otherwise, simply learn to build your team to the system.
What do you mean by building your team to the system? I'm not going to build some team that would never work in real life jsut because it would work in the sim. That's just not interesting to me. 

This season is officially ridden out...though I'd say the wagon crashed several games ago. 9-18 is pretty much the worst year I've ever had in any sim ever, but I've also never played a sim that artificially retards your team for a whole season.
It's a bit useless to complain that the game isnt working right if you arent learning how the game is actually working. Depth charts only count for a small percentage of why you'll win or lose a game. Wonky substitution patterns are a small pct too. The key is recruiting. If your team is close in talent and you are missing certain aspects, it's difficukt to gameplan to a win. You can put your team into an optimal lineup, or what you think or tinker to an optimal lineup, or run matchups or double teams, but in the end it ends up being a talent and IQ and depth and your lineup-mix game. Looking at the pbp has some limited value for things like fouls in M2M or TO against a press. Or for if your late game settings are working like you want. It can't give you any satisfaction if you just want it to produce the results you expect. If the other team was more talented overall, and it was tight, than you gameplanned pretty well. If you're even and you're losing, than you need to keep tinkering. I would love it if this worked like 'real' basketball, but that assumes that i know what real basketball would result from a player to whom I only have numerical values for 12 different attributes in my Flex and M2M system.
Great, so I recruited well enough to have 4 guys that are better than team I inherited. What do you propose that I haven't learned? 

The pbp has very limited value, I'll definitely agree with you there. It's terrible. 

IQ is trash. My team would have been a lot better if it didn't exist, and indeed there are many here that have agreed with me that it's broken.

I can tell you what real basketball would result from a flex system in this day and age...you'd be mediocre. There's a reason no one plays the flex anymore.
2/19/2014 8:25 AM
So Gonzaga doesn't play division one ball and has had no success and been decidedly mediocre over Few's time there? Who knew?
2/19/2014 9:14 AM
the more you compare this game to RL the more of a **** game it becomes. IQ helps to balance the powers - particularly at D1. If there were no IQ the A+ prestige D1 programs would run the tables every season.
2/19/2014 9:58 AM
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 1:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by artie40 on 2/18/2014 10:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/18/2014 5:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by artie40 on 2/18/2014 3:48:00 PM (view original):
This thread jumped the shark a long time ago...

Needless to say, if ettaexpress continues to play while making such consistent grumblings at perceived anomalies, than more power to him/her (I assume a him, but it's wrong to assume).

The anomalies aren't anomalies. Anything that is mechanical can only produce mechanical results. Each game is won or lost based upon percentages. Any loss in particular can go against what "should" happen, just like any win. Get your team better. Ride out this season before it is better. Otherwise, simply learn to build your team to the system.
What do you mean by building your team to the system? I'm not going to build some team that would never work in real life jsut because it would work in the sim. That's just not interesting to me. 

This season is officially ridden out...though I'd say the wagon crashed several games ago. 9-18 is pretty much the worst year I've ever had in any sim ever, but I've also never played a sim that artificially retards your team for a whole season.
It's a bit useless to complain that the game isnt working right if you arent learning how the game is actually working. Depth charts only count for a small percentage of why you'll win or lose a game. Wonky substitution patterns are a small pct too. The key is recruiting. If your team is close in talent and you are missing certain aspects, it's difficukt to gameplan to a win. You can put your team into an optimal lineup, or what you think or tinker to an optimal lineup, or run matchups or double teams, but in the end it ends up being a talent and IQ and depth and your lineup-mix game. Looking at the pbp has some limited value for things like fouls in M2M or TO against a press. Or for if your late game settings are working like you want. It can't give you any satisfaction if you just want it to produce the results you expect. If the other team was more talented overall, and it was tight, than you gameplanned pretty well. If you're even and you're losing, than you need to keep tinkering. I would love it if this worked like 'real' basketball, but that assumes that i know what real basketball would result from a player to whom I only have numerical values for 12 different attributes in my Flex and M2M system.
Great, so I recruited well enough to have 4 guys that are better than team I inherited. What do you propose that I haven't learned? 

The pbp has very limited value, I'll definitely agree with you there. It's terrible. 

IQ is trash. My team would have been a lot better if it didn't exist, and indeed there are many here that have agreed with me that it's broken.

I can tell you what real basketball would result from a flex system in this day and age...you'd be mediocre. There's a reason no one plays the flex anymore.
I'm not sure if that's a dig on my flex offense that I run at D3 in Hoops Dynasty, but there are flex principles in almost every NBA offense. Also, Jerry Sloan ran the flex w/ Stockton and Malone, Rick Adelman runs a flex offense, plenty of colleges run a flex...it's an old offense, sure, but so is the triangle. I don't think that my offense is crazy awesome, but it is one of the options that we have here...I don't get to design my own offense on Hoops Dynasty.

IQ isn't trash. It's part of the player development strategy of the game. You can put very little stock in IQ, put more points into skill development, and change the way you're developing players. I put stock in IQ, put a little extra practice towards it. It's part of the strategy of getting your players ready. If you think it's trash, than I can only tell you that you're wrong, in a value sense. It's valuable to have good IQ. In real basketball terms, would you rather have a person who knows the offense that you're running, coach? Or, someone who doesn't?

What I propose that you haven't learned yet, overall, is to stop peeing into the wind with your complaints. There are a litany of imperfections with the Sim Engine that all of us have faced. The only problem is, well, everyone hits those same imperfections. The coaches who consistently get their teams into the tournament and consistently advance have figured out the players that they want, recruited well, put them together in the right lineup, developed them and have gone through the learning curve to succeed in HD. You haven't learned that complaining about how your top defensive player didn't shut down an offensive player in the PBP wasn't why your team didn't win the game. It didn't win because your team just isn't that talented. Your four freshman will be good when they're seniors, and you'll probably win a lot of the games you currently lose after 3+ seasons of developing those guys, researching the game, recruiting the next classes, etc.

As for now, you're peeing into the wind.
2/19/2014 3:46 PM
Posted by a_in_the_b on 2/19/2014 8:25:00 AM (view original):
So Gonzaga doesn't play division one ball and has had no success and been decidedly mediocre over Few's time there? Who knew?
Gonzaga's version is so modified as to be practically unrecognizable. It plays a lot more like a motion, and in fact many call it that or motion/flex. 

The more correct counterpoint would have been Gary Williams and Maryland, but I would have submitted that his team at their best could have been successful in any offense. 

The original flex is pretty much always used as a talent equalizer. If you don't have very good creators or one on one players or dribblers, you use the flex. When Herb Sendek got to Arizona State and all he had was 1 major-conference caliber player, he ran the flex that year to try to at least win a few games. The other total fail in HD is the characterization of the flex as an offense that fosters perimeter product. It usually does the opposite of that.
2/19/2014 3:53 PM
Posted by artie40 on 2/19/2014 9:58:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 1:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by artie40 on 2/18/2014 10:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/18/2014 5:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by artie40 on 2/18/2014 3:48:00 PM (view original):
This thread jumped the shark a long time ago...

Needless to say, if ettaexpress continues to play while making such consistent grumblings at perceived anomalies, than more power to him/her (I assume a him, but it's wrong to assume).

The anomalies aren't anomalies. Anything that is mechanical can only produce mechanical results. Each game is won or lost based upon percentages. Any loss in particular can go against what "should" happen, just like any win. Get your team better. Ride out this season before it is better. Otherwise, simply learn to build your team to the system.
What do you mean by building your team to the system? I'm not going to build some team that would never work in real life jsut because it would work in the sim. That's just not interesting to me. 

This season is officially ridden out...though I'd say the wagon crashed several games ago. 9-18 is pretty much the worst year I've ever had in any sim ever, but I've also never played a sim that artificially retards your team for a whole season.
It's a bit useless to complain that the game isnt working right if you arent learning how the game is actually working. Depth charts only count for a small percentage of why you'll win or lose a game. Wonky substitution patterns are a small pct too. The key is recruiting. If your team is close in talent and you are missing certain aspects, it's difficukt to gameplan to a win. You can put your team into an optimal lineup, or what you think or tinker to an optimal lineup, or run matchups or double teams, but in the end it ends up being a talent and IQ and depth and your lineup-mix game. Looking at the pbp has some limited value for things like fouls in M2M or TO against a press. Or for if your late game settings are working like you want. It can't give you any satisfaction if you just want it to produce the results you expect. If the other team was more talented overall, and it was tight, than you gameplanned pretty well. If you're even and you're losing, than you need to keep tinkering. I would love it if this worked like 'real' basketball, but that assumes that i know what real basketball would result from a player to whom I only have numerical values for 12 different attributes in my Flex and M2M system.
Great, so I recruited well enough to have 4 guys that are better than team I inherited. What do you propose that I haven't learned? 

The pbp has very limited value, I'll definitely agree with you there. It's terrible. 

IQ is trash. My team would have been a lot better if it didn't exist, and indeed there are many here that have agreed with me that it's broken.

I can tell you what real basketball would result from a flex system in this day and age...you'd be mediocre. There's a reason no one plays the flex anymore.
I'm not sure if that's a dig on my flex offense that I run at D3 in Hoops Dynasty, but there are flex principles in almost every NBA offense. Also, Jerry Sloan ran the flex w/ Stockton and Malone, Rick Adelman runs a flex offense, plenty of colleges run a flex...it's an old offense, sure, but so is the triangle. I don't think that my offense is crazy awesome, but it is one of the options that we have here...I don't get to design my own offense on Hoops Dynasty.

IQ isn't trash. It's part of the player development strategy of the game. You can put very little stock in IQ, put more points into skill development, and change the way you're developing players. I put stock in IQ, put a little extra practice towards it. It's part of the strategy of getting your players ready. If you think it's trash, than I can only tell you that you're wrong, in a value sense. It's valuable to have good IQ. In real basketball terms, would you rather have a person who knows the offense that you're running, coach? Or, someone who doesn't?

What I propose that you haven't learned yet, overall, is to stop peeing into the wind with your complaints. There are a litany of imperfections with the Sim Engine that all of us have faced. The only problem is, well, everyone hits those same imperfections. The coaches who consistently get their teams into the tournament and consistently advance have figured out the players that they want, recruited well, put them together in the right lineup, developed them and have gone through the learning curve to succeed in HD. You haven't learned that complaining about how your top defensive player didn't shut down an offensive player in the PBP wasn't why your team didn't win the game. It didn't win because your team just isn't that talented. Your four freshman will be good when they're seniors, and you'll probably win a lot of the games you currently lose after 3+ seasons of developing those guys, researching the game, recruiting the next classes, etc.

As for now, you're peeing into the wind.
In the way the sim works, IQ is crap. There is no way in hell a motion offense takes a year and a half to learn to any level of proficiency. NONE. That is an out and out flaw. There is no other accurate characterization. It's wrong, and it should have been fixed a long time ago if some veterans had sacked up.

It ****** me off so ******* much that you veterans have this attitude of oh well I guess we'll just deal with the fact that the sim has all these flaws, rather than actually doing something about it (which seems the time has passed for that, but that doesn't absolve you of the failure). 

And then it ****** me off more when you dismiss me for having very valid complaints that you all should have addressed a long time ago. You're the ones paying for this. This is your game. Why the hell didn't you take ownership of that a long time or leave the damn thing to rot? 

You all talk about me and how I come off, how the hell do you think it comes off when you say "oh you're just peeing into the wind"? You're basically telling me that whatever I say is wrong or doesn't matter. 

And then you wonder why I get upset about that. I want to call you what I really think of you, but people here get huffy and report me and then asymmetric punishment ensues because veterans get preferential treatment. 
2/19/2014 3:55 PM
Posted by rednation58 on 2/19/2014 9:14:00 AM (view original):
the more you compare this game to RL the more of a **** game it becomes. IQ helps to balance the powers - particularly at D1. If there were no IQ the A+ prestige D1 programs would run the tables every season.
"the more you compare this game to RL the more of a **** game it becomes"

COULD NOT AGREE WITH YOU MORE!

Maybe the fact that those A+ prestige programs would dominate every year reveals a flaw, but it's not properly solved by simply artificially retarding teams by pretending like learning an offense takes 2 years. That's just copping out and hurting a whole lot of other teams that couldn't give a **** less about D1.
2/19/2014 4:33 PM
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 3:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by rednation58 on 2/19/2014 9:14:00 AM (view original):
the more you compare this game to RL the more of a **** game it becomes. IQ helps to balance the powers - particularly at D1. If there were no IQ the A+ prestige D1 programs would run the tables every season.
"the more you compare this game to RL the more of a **** game it becomes"

COULD NOT AGREE WITH YOU MORE!

Maybe the fact that those A+ prestige programs would dominate every year reveals a flaw, but it's not properly solved by simply artificially retarding teams by pretending like learning an offense takes 2 years. That's just copping out and hurting a whole lot of other teams that couldn't give a **** less about D1.
Well, the fact that this game doesn't mirror real life was covered early on in the deleted 60 page thread. Good to see after those 60 pages and another 25 (the 2 current threads) you finally got this into your head. That's 95 pages. Maybe after another 95 you'll finally understand and acknowledge how IQ works and why it's important for the game.

And if IQ was thrown out, top d2 and d3 programs would be much harder to catch as well. It's important at all 3 levels.
2/19/2014 4:37 PM
Stop beating the "learn the offense" strawman to death.  It's been pointed out to you multiple times that it makes more sense to think about IQ in terms of experience, rather than just learning the offense. 

You can't possibly dispute that a team playing together for 3 years will tend to have a higher proficiency than a group of FR.  Not that it completely overrides talent, but it's a factor.  That's all IQ is.
2/19/2014 4:41 PM
Posted by killbatman on 2/19/2014 4:37:00 PM (view original):
Stop beating the "learn the offense" strawman to death.  It's been pointed out to you multiple times that it makes more sense to think about IQ in terms of experience, rather than just learning the offense. 

You can't possibly dispute that a team playing together for 3 years will tend to have a higher proficiency than a group of FR.  Not that it completely overrides talent, but it's a factor.  That's all IQ is.
But then what excuse would he have when his team lost Batman?

Weren't you quitting after next season anyway Etta?
2/19/2014 4:42 PM
One of the great BENEFITS of IQ is that it opens up alternative strategies for success.  One can aim to get the very best players but not fill some schollies - or one can aim for depth and build rosters that have experienced upperclassmen every season or most seasons.  A ten deep team of darn good players can compete reasonably well against a 6 studs that have 2 walkons and 4 freshman with them who dont know much yet.

I think that is interesting - and has some relationship to real life......recognizing the limits of game play and simulations
2/19/2014 4:51 PM
Thinking about IQ in terms of experience doesn't work either, because just "experience" doesn't raise a team to the level the IQ does, or conversely hurt one that has a lower IQ to that extent. 

I don't see what the alternative strategy to success would have been for my team...I guess I could have stayed in a bad offense for the sake of IQ, but 2 factors there -- 1, it's a bad offense, and 2, I had no way of knowing how much impact the change in IQ would have, and how long it would last. That's something that should be made more clear in the instructions/FAQ/etc. to the game, but I guess to veterans that wouldn't matter when you can just use it to keep newbs from being too good, too fast. Sure it's "a factor"...it's a helluva factor, much more than it should be. The best players, regardless of experience, are usually the ones that play the most on a basketball team, and rarely does that lack of experience cause real problems beyond the first few games. More common is that FR struggle later in the year due to hitting "the freshman wall", just wearing down under the increased pressure and physical demands. That's probably more common below the elite level these days because top players come into college basketball with so much experience.
2/19/2014 5:01 PM
Not to mention that I don't think it would really matter as much as you all are saying anyway. It's not a FR is just as good as a SR. There's still development, in many cases a lot of it. So I think if you got rid of or severely toned down IQ then you'd still have most FR be not as good as most SRs, but not where it is now where it's almost impossible to have a true impact FR like a Carmelo Anthony (or Jesse Duperow, but no one except maybe jaymc knows who that is).
2/19/2014 5:14 PM
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 5:01:00 PM (view original):
Not to mention that I don't think it would really matter as much as you all are saying anyway. It's not a FR is just as good as a SR. There's still development, in many cases a lot of it. So I think if you got rid of or severely toned down IQ then you'd still have most FR be not as good as most SRs, but not where it is now where it's almost impossible to have a true impact FR like a Carmelo Anthony (or Jesse Duperow, but no one except maybe jaymc knows who that is).
Do you watch movies? Or TV shows? What type/genre?
2/19/2014 5:24 PM
Thinking about IQ in terms of experience doesn't work either, because just "experience" doesn't raise a team to the level the IQ does, or conversely hurt one that has a lower IQ to that extent.
And to what extent is that exactly?  I mean you're talking like an authority on this and declaring IQ garbage, and you haven't even experienced a high IQ team yet to compare the results firsthand.  You've seen a small piece of the picture and declared the whole thing broken. 
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