I think of "roles" not positions.

Someone needs to be a PG- high speed, BH, Pass.
Someone needs to be an inside scorer- ATH/LP
Someone needs to be an outside scorer- SPD/PER
Someone needs to be a rebounder- ATH/REB


The PG is the the only role that I feel must be slotted in a specific position.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/19/2014 9:07:00 AM (view original):
I think of "roles" not positions.

Someone needs to be a PG- high speed, BH, Pass.
Someone needs to be an inside scorer- ATH/LP
Someone needs to be an outside scorer- SPD/PER
Someone needs to be a rebounder- ATH/REB


The PG is the the only role that I feel must be slotted in a specific position.

this is great advice. its all about what guys are intended for. in the original question, what is the most important rating for offense, its hard to say - its almost always lp or per but that really doesn't tell you anything. lots of players don't need to score. what is the most important rating for defense? its almost always defense, but a guy with great defense isn't necessarily a good defender. the best thing you can do is think of roles and understand what ratings are valuable for which abilities.

here are some common abilities you want for your players - not meant to be a complete list but the key stuff. iq and fatigue (driven by stamina and time played) matter for almost everything. usually you want guys who can do two things well (score, defend, rebound, guard skills (bh pass)), but scorers who are just decent elsewhere can be very helpful, too.
running the point (the offensive side of a PG, regardless of their scoring ability) - passing by a lot, then bh and spd
perimeter scoring - per, then spd, then bh. lp, then ath can help increase fg% (but not really 3pt%, ath slightly), and ft% is good for perimeter scorers, especially if they score a decent amount of 2s
interior scoring - lp, then ath (both very important), then ft% and per can be helpful too
perimeter defense - def, then ath and spd. in press, speed over ath, in man, probably ath over spd. for the 3 (sf) ath is more valuable relative to speed, it seems.
interior defense - def, then ath, then sb. sb in the press is far behind the other two, in the zone its possibly not that far behind ath, man defense somewhere in the middle
driving guard scorer - ath, spd, lp, per, bh, and ft% are all important. the order is unclear
rebounding - reb, then ath

i think the only adjustment i'd make to TJs list is that passing is, IMO, the #1 overall attribute for PGs. also, clearly lot of those guys also need to be decent defenders, so def and ath are going to be valuable ratings for those perimeter players, too. you can't have it all, but they certainly are nice to have.

Three things worth talking about, in my opinion.


1. I don't think PASS is the clear cut #1 factor in "being a PG".   My current theory is that PG's  PASS is used in the "does the shot go in equation" and that speed, bh, and pass are all used in the "does the offense turn the ball over before taking a shot" equation.   I also think that SPD may be just as important as BH and PASS.   I know my high BH/PASS low speed guys always underperform at PG.   I think I would probably take a 90/70/70 PG over a 70/70/90 PG at this point.

2. I think speed is as important (or more so) in perimeter defense in zone and man.

3. The  non standard scoring "guard" continues to confound me.  


This guy shoots 43%

Athleticism	99	1
Speed	72	4
Low-post	20
Perimeter	15	5
Ball Handling	62	9
Passing	21	2

While this guy shoots 49%

Athleticism	65	1
Speed	79	6
Low-post	24	6
Perimeter	25
Ball Handling	72	2
Passing	83

i long felt speed was #1 for pgs, i would be pretty surprised if spd and pass weren't #1 and #2 for the typical traditional pg. with the impact passing seems to have on team fg%, it has made me value passing more of late, taking it from a solid #2 to a close #1. so, i don't think we are that far apart on that issue.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/19/2014 11:30:00 AM (view original):
Three things worth talking about, in my opinion.


1. I don't think PASS is the clear cut #1 factor in "being a PG".   My current theory is that PG's  PASS is used in the "does the shot go in equation" and that speed, bh, and pass are all used in the "does the offense turn the ball over before taking a shot" equation.   I also think that SPD may be just as important as BH and PASS.   I know my high BH/PASS low speed guys always underperform at PG.   I think I would probably take a 90/70/70 PG over a 70/70/90 PG at this point.

2. I think speed is as important (or more so) in perimeter defense in zone and man.

3. The  non standard scoring "guard" continues to confound me.  


This guy shoots 43%

Athleticism	99	1
Speed	72	4
Low-post	20
Perimeter	15	5
Ball Handling	62	9
Passing	21	2

While this guy shoots 49%

Athleticism	65	1
Speed	79	6
Low-post	24	6
Perimeter	25
Ball Handling	72	2
Passing	83

Neither one of those guys looks like they should be able to shoot a lick. I would think maybe at least the high ath guy could drive and dunk (if driving is even a thing in this game, hard to see it from the pbp). 

Assuming those two are shooting the same amount, yeah that's weird, but both seem like they're better than they should be unless the first guy is a limited use weapon.

I had moderate success (won PI, some conference championships, usually NT 2nd rounder) with this formula:

I would add up the stats of players based on minimums and get a total at the end. So an ATH of 43 with a "low-high" would be 63. 

PG: Defense, Speed, Athleticism, Ball Handling/2, Passing/2
SG: Defense, Speed, Athleticism, Ball Handling/2, Passing/2
SF: Defense, Athleticism, Speed/2, Rebound/2
PF: Defense, Rebound, Athleticism, Block/2, Speed/2
C: Defense, Rebound, Athleticism, Block/2

I would then rank the guys that fit that best. I viewed PG/SG and PF/C as very similar. Faster guy would get the move to PG or PF. Clearly, I value Defense. My team would usually be near top of the NCAA in points against. Once I have my top 5 at each position I have a need for, I look and see if maybe the #2 or #3 guy is also a good scorer. Bumps up or down one spot happen from this. 

Another thing I see ignored. FTs. This is a HUGE separating factor for me between recruits. If you look back on my Otterbein team, players I recruited hold records for FT shooting. I have 1st (82.5%), 4th, 5th ( a center that shot 81.5%), 6th, 7, 8, 9, and a few more lower. During season 62, I had the 4th, 5th, and 6th guys all starting. Which coincides with my second highest RPI year. It's an easy stat that is overlooked by many that really correlates to having efficiency out on the floor. 

In D3 I was verrry selective on 3 pt shooting. I had an algorithm for this too. 2 pt fg% (you have to do a bit to get that) x 2 compared to 3pt% x 3. If the 2pt number was higher, I wasn't letting that person take threes at all. 

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 2:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/19/2014 11:30:00 AM (view original):
Three things worth talking about, in my opinion.


1. I don't think PASS is the clear cut #1 factor in "being a PG".   My current theory is that PG's  PASS is used in the "does the shot go in equation" and that speed, bh, and pass are all used in the "does the offense turn the ball over before taking a shot" equation.   I also think that SPD may be just as important as BH and PASS.   I know my high BH/PASS low speed guys always underperform at PG.   I think I would probably take a 90/70/70 PG over a 70/70/90 PG at this point.

2. I think speed is as important (or more so) in perimeter defense in zone and man.

3. The  non standard scoring "guard" continues to confound me.  


This guy shoots 43%

Athleticism	99	1
Speed	72	4
Low-post	20
Perimeter	15	5
Ball Handling	62	9
Passing	21	2

While this guy shoots 49%

Athleticism	65	1
Speed	79	6
Low-post	24	6
Perimeter	25
Ball Handling	72	2
Passing	83

Neither one of those guys looks like they should be able to shoot a lick. I would think maybe at least the high ath guy could drive and dunk (if driving is even a thing in this game, hard to see it from the pbp). 

Assuming those two are shooting the same amount, yeah that's weird, but both seem like they're better than they should be unless the first guy is a limited use weapon.

In this game, players with a good combination of Ath/Spd/BH can often score effectively on 2s without much LP/Per.

I can think of a couple "SGs" on real-life Alabama who fit that description.  Would probably rate highly in Ath/Spd/BH, but seemingly can't shoot outside of 10 feet.  They do a halfway decent job of driving and finishing around the goal or getting fouled, despite no real shooting ability.  Of course in real life teams do learn to play off and shut that down some, and we probably can't do that as well in HD.  It would be nice if you could individually +/- opposing players.

Posted by bbunch on 2/18/2014 5:32:00 PM (view original):
Also - ignore the player's listed position. Look at the player's attributes, envision where the player would be in your starting lineup, and go from there. 

(For instance, a guy that is listed as SG but has low ATH and PER and high BH, PAS, and SPD would be a much better PG. Treat him as such. )

To illustrate this point, the following player was available late in recruiting because at lot of people probably didn't see the very, very good SF he could be because he is listed as a PG...

http://whatif.cincinnati.com/hd/PlayerProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=0&pid=2558209

As for speed, it goes a LONG ways towards helping a scoring guard score.  I give you Aurelio "Il Cecchino" Gallo:

http://whatif.cincinnati.com/hd/PlayerProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=0&pid=2519315