Posted by alblack56 on 4/8/2014 6:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jtt8355 on 4/8/2014 4:02:00 PM (view original):

even with the current season counting for 50%, he made the tourney. back to back titles as the other 50%? this is definitely ticket worthy. 

The other seasons really don't matter.    It's 50% current season, and 50% current prestige.  It doesn't matter HOW he got to A+; he's only slight better than the other A+ teams.   When you average the A+ with a 13-loss season, prestige will drop.

 I don't agree with the system but that's the way it is.

I think this sums it up very well.  I also think wins play a far bigger role than most people realize.  My gut says had you had a 20+ win season you would have stayed at A+.  I'm not saying the current system makes sense, but based on how prestige is calculated the drop to A does not surprise me.

there are 15 teams that have an A+ prestige in naismith d2. i think that's the most i've ever seen. compare with knight d2, which only has 8. that's a big discrepancy.

Posted by alblack56 on 4/8/2014 6:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jtt8355 on 4/8/2014 4:02:00 PM (view original):

even with the current season counting for 50%, he made the tourney. back to back titles as the other 50%? this is definitely ticket worthy. 

The other seasons really don't matter.    It's 50% current season, and 50% current prestige.  It doesn't matter HOW he got to A+; he's only slight better than the other A+ teams.   When you average the A+ with a 13-loss season, prestige will drop.

 I don't agree with the system but that's the way it is.

agreed. that last season is an a- at best, averaged with an a+, there is no reason to expect any more than an a. more likely, the current season was good for a b+, but the high a+ caused the end result to be an a.

Posted by mullycj on 4/8/2014 3:40:00 PM (view original):
Legit complaint - WIS went over board in DII and DIII with too much emphasis on current season results.

Does that surprise you that WIS over corrected on something?

what do you mean, over corrected? i didn't know they ever changed d2/d3 prestige, at least not since i started, was it before that (6.5 years ago i think)? i agree the last season being 50% is way too much, however :)

Posted by yanks250125 on 4/8/2014 5:46:00 PM (view original):
www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx

this team stays at A+ but the OP has his team drop off?  doesn't seem right

Okay, I may need to be corrected here but it's been my understanding that prestige is cumulative and that there is no cap on how high an A+ could go. Yanks' resume is far more consistent and has built to a higher level of an A+. For example over in crum jsajsa is so high of an A+ I expect him to start recruiting ranked players with his DIII team.

Yes you had two amazing seasons, I haven't even had one of those, but it was kind of a flash in The pan. I think you need consistency to maintain an A+. Should you still be an A+, perhaps! but I would think you are a very high A.

Posted by milwood on 4/8/2014 7:49:00 PM (view original):

Posted by yanks250125 on 4/8/2014 5:46:00 PM (view original):
www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx

this team stays at A+ but the OP has his team drop off?  doesn't seem right

Okay, I may need to be corrected here but it's been my understanding that prestige is cumulative and that there is no cap on how high an A+ could go. Yanks' resume is far more consistent and has built to a higher level of an A+. For example over in crum jsajsa is so high of an A+ I expect him to start recruiting ranked players with his DIII team.

Yes you had two amazing seasons, I haven't even had one of those, but it was kind of a flash in The pan. I think you need consistency to maintain an A+. Should you still be an A+, perhaps! but I would think you are a very high A.

OK, some of the responses here make me see that the A is not totally unreasonable, although I still disagree with it.  This one however is ridiculous.

More consistency?? Flash in the pan??  In the last 20 seasons, I have 20 NT appearances, 5 2nd round trips, 1 sweet 16, 2 elite 8's, 3 final 4's, 1 Championship game and 3 titles.

His resume over that period does not compare at all (no offense to Yanks, it is a very good resume).  There is no reason he is an + and I am not.

I QWIT!

I apologize flash in the pan may not have been completely accurate. And I was wrong about the consistency part. I only looked back a few seasons to see the first and second round exits before the championships which is why I said you didn't build up a high enough A+ to keep it that last season. Your resume is pretty consistent: two very good/great seasons followed by two subpar/less than great seasons. That is pretty consistent. When I think of an A+ program it is one that can compete year in and year out, not half the time.

My point was that if you had a resume where you were a consistent contender, like jsajsa, then you could get by with this one subpar season.

Yanks resume had five straight years of at least the sweet sixteen before his first round exit which hurt him, but he still had 21 wins and an RPI of 25. His following year was better. He was ousted in the second round but he had 27 wins, was ranked 15, with an RPI of 14. That season looks like he just had a bad beat in the second round but it was a strong team.

Your RPI was 69 with only 17 wins, which means you had 14 regular season wins. This is a terrible season. You had a great conference tournament run, which propelled you into the NT. you should expect a drop off of that season. Maybe it should have gone from a high A+ to a low A+?

Was my post wrong? Perhaps. Ridiculous? Nope

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/8/2014 6:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mullycj on 4/8/2014 3:40:00 PM (view original):
Legit complaint - WIS went over board in DII and DIII with too much emphasis on current season results.

Does that surprise you that WIS over corrected on something?

what do you mean, over corrected? i didn't know they ever changed d2/d3 prestige, at least not since i started, was it before that (6.5 years ago i think)? i agree the last season being 50% is way too much, however :)

Check the release notes from a few years back  (maybe more since this all blends together now).  On one update they changed the calc so that the most recent season had a higher % affect on the prestige grade.

• Changed the logic for determining a team's recent success as applies to prestige so that the weighting of the past 4 seasons will be spread out more evenly, placing less emphasis on the most recent season.

LOL in typical fashion I remember the change in the wrong way.  6/12 - they decreased the affect of the most recent season.

Posted by mullycj on 4/8/2014 9:39:00 PM (view original):

• Changed the logic for determining a team's recent success as applies to prestige so that the weighting of the past 4 seasons will be spread out more evenly, placing less emphasis on the most recent season.

LOL in typical fashion I remember the change in the wrong way.  6/12 - they decreased the affect of the most recent season.

i thought that might be what you were talking about... but that was also d1 only, not d2/d3

Posted by milwood on 4/8/2014 9:04:00 PM (view original):
I apologize flash in the pan may not have been completely accurate. And I was wrong about the consistency part. I only looked back a few seasons to see the first and second round exits before the championships which is why I said you didn't build up a high enough A+ to keep it that last season. Your resume is pretty consistent: two very good/great seasons followed by two subpar/less than great seasons. That is pretty consistent. When I think of an A+ program it is one that can compete year in and year out, not half the time.

My point was that if you had a resume where you were a consistent contender, like jsajsa, then you could get by with this one subpar season.

Yanks resume had five straight years of at least the sweet sixteen before his first round exit which hurt him, but he still had 21 wins and an RPI of 25. His following year was better. He was ousted in the second round but he had 27 wins, was ranked 15, with an RPI of 14. That season looks like he just had a bad beat in the second round but it was a strong team.

Your RPI was 69 with only 17 wins, which means you had 14 regular season wins. This is a terrible season. You had a great conference tournament run, which propelled you into the NT. you should expect a drop off of that season. Maybe it should have gone from a high A+ to a low A+?

Was my post wrong? Perhaps. Ridiculous? Nope

eh... sorry but there's no "perhaps", it was definitely wrong, and IMO ridiculous as well.

outside of the ridiculous "flash in the pan" statement (his resume is killer), prestige IS capped in d2/d3, so its not like you can just build up an A++ like in d1. also, (partially but not totally because of that) this concept of building up a high enough a+ to withstand a bad season, it doesn't really fly. see earlier posts explaining how d2/d3 prestige is calculated... an accurate explanation for the a+ to a decrease has already been presented.

I'm just going to look more at this 'down' season.  Note #1- he didn't get an NT bid- he won the CT to get in.  Note #2: His end of season isn't even an NT worth RPI- he might note have made the PT!.  If he didn't win the CT, I'd argue it should've dropped to an A-.  That season might not have moved up a C prestige team too much... I'd also point out that even in your championship seasons, they weren't amazing seasons: RPI's of 9 and 4.

That being said, I disagree with the logic, but from my understand of the way the logic has always worked.  But say you were an A prestige before that season- you wouldn't be arguing that it should stay at A.

I think as a 'public' we're over-emphasising championships vs. the formula, but these championship seasons weren't strong regular seasons, just strong tourney runs. (Not that I don't wish I could pull that off, or find it impressive, but thinking from a computer programming perspective, the regular season has to have a large chunk of weight).

Posted by bagger288 on 4/8/2014 5:02:00 PM (view original):
Lets look at Michigan state talking about final fours, Tom izzo before this season every single player that has played 4 seasons under him has gone to a final four, he has won a national title and many people say that if he had won another this year he'd be into the great category of coaches and not just good, or maybe even legendary. Now since he lost people are asking for his head, saying he's the reason they havent been back and screaming at the college to go after someone like billy donovan at Florida. This guy has been coaching for almost 15 seasons, won a title brought a program into the top 10 category and has had an amazing run of final fours in some seasons they should have never been there. He doesn't make it this season on the cusp of becoming a legend and fans are asking for his job... Athletic Sports are unforgiving, there is a saying in pro football and that is "you get hired to get fired." 1 season can mean your job, your reputation, or even your credibility, regardless of your past.

People in Michigan are calling for Izzo's head?  First I have heard of this.  Have to assume it is only idiots who know nothing about basketball.

Posted by asher413 on 4/9/2014 12:53:00 PM (view original):
I'm just going to look more at this 'down' season.  Note #1- he didn't get an NT bid- he won the CT to get in.  Note #2: His end of season isn't even an NT worth RPI- he might note have made the PT!.  If he didn't win the CT, I'd argue it should've dropped to an A-.  That season might not have moved up a C prestige team too much... I'd also point out that even in your championship seasons, they weren't amazing seasons: RPI's of 9 and 4.

That being said, I disagree with the logic, but from my understand of the way the logic has always worked.  But say you were an A prestige before that season- you wouldn't be arguing that it should stay at A.

I think as a 'public' we're over-emphasising championships vs. the formula, but these championship seasons weren't strong regular seasons, just strong tourney runs. (Not that I don't wish I could pull that off, or find it impressive, but thinking from a computer programming perspective, the regular season has to have a large chunk of weight).

RPI's of 9 and 4 are pretty solid I think.

I agree that this season wasn't very good, but that isn't all my fault.  My best player was hurt the 1st 7 weeks of the season, coincidentally I had a 1-6 record when he came back.  So you almost have to break it down into 2 seasons, the 2nd half of which is good, although unspectacular.  Had I not made the NT I would concede the point, but I'm sure the logic does not factor in how you make a NT, just whether or not you did.  If I'm wrong on that, which is possible, then again, I concede the point. 

Assuming billyg is correct, and I have no reason to dispute that (he's forgotten more about this game than I know), I did not realize D2 and 3 did not have "levels" of A+ like at D1, so figured I had built up enough of a cushion to withstand 1 below average season.  I still don't think there are a dozen D2 programs in Naismith that deserve to be higher than me in prestige given the last 12 seasons or so, but I see how the A is justified.