Maybe the Problem Isn't Guns After All Topic

MikeT23
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BLOCKED PARTIES ARE HERE TOO!!!

4/10/2014 5:49 PM
bad_luck
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Christ, how much attention do you need, mike? You jump into a thread to argue with people you have blocked?
4/10/2014 5:52 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by examinerebb on 4/9/2014 1:11:00 PM (view original):
Nothing about this makes me happy.  It should never happen, with guns or without.  The problem is, as long as the focus is on guns, the real root cause of these types of situations doesn't get addressed.
Agreed.  Though guns cannot be dismissed from the discussion.

If guns were involved in this incident the other day, we'd be talking about fatalities and not injuries.

If I had to pick one, I'd rather my child/family member/friend/etc be attacked and survive than be attacked and killed.  Though ideally, they would never be attacked at all.
4/11/2014 6:54 AM
MikeT23
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Are we talking about fatalities?    I think people survive gunshot wounds from time to time. 

I've only read one article on this attack.   It lead me to believe that the kid ran down the hallway randomly stabbing people.   No idea how far or fast he ran but, had he fired a gun, people on the back end would have known a shot had been fired.  Maybe they run and avoid any injury.  If he's running down the hall firing shots, people are being shot once not multiple times.

Let's not assume a gun would have caused fatalities.  More likely?  Sure.  Absolutely?  Hardly.
4/11/2014 8:17 AM
tecwrg
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So what's better?  20 people getting stabbed and surviving?  Or one person getting shot and killed while everybody else runs away safely?

What's your "e = mc²" equation for random violence?

4/11/2014 8:41 AM
MikeT23
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Again, are we sure someone dies if he uses a gun?

Anyway, I imagine the 19 who ran away would say "One person getting shot and killed is better than me getting stabbed."    The dead person, if we assume his thoughts, thinks that sucks.

I get your dislike for guns.   But not everyone uses them to shoot innocent people.
4/11/2014 8:56 AM
MikeT23
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I think the point is you can't legislate crazy out of people.     And, from the article I read, this kid gave no sign that he was going to go off.    Something snapped.
4/11/2014 9:02 AM
MikeT23
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And, because we love to repeat stuff around here, I'm all for tougher gun laws.  Make it harder to get guns.   Make the penalty for having/using an unregistered gun substantial.   

But don't assume that will stop random act of violence fatalities. 
4/11/2014 9:09 AM
tecwrg
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You seem to be minimizing if not flat-out dismissing the probability that there could have been fatalities had a gun been used.  It's also kind of silly to think that everybody would have the presence of mind to immediately recognize what what happening, turn and run.  When one hears a loud, unexpected sharp noise in a hallway, the immediately thought is probably not going to be "GUN!!!  RUN!!!".  It's more likely going to be "Huh?  What was that?".  Multiple shots could be fired before everybody in that hallway realizes what the **** is going on.

Also, what the individuals involved think is irrelevant to the overall conversation.  They would hardly have objective, non-biased opinions.  But if I were to speculate, I would guess that the stab victims are probably thinking "I'm glad he didn't have a gun".

Finally, theoretically, would one dead person be better than 20 injured persons?  Is that what we, as a society, should accept as a reasonable trade off?

4/11/2014 9:18 AM
tecwrg
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Posted by MikeT23 on 4/11/2014 9:09:00 AM (view original):
And, because we love to repeat stuff around here, I'm all for tougher gun laws.  Make it harder to get guns.   Make the penalty for having/using an unregistered gun substantial.   

But don't assume that will stop random act of violence fatalities. 
Well, I agree with all of what you're saying here.
4/11/2014 9:19 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by tecwrg on 4/11/2014 9:18:00 AM (view original):

You seem to be minimizing if not flat-out dismissing the probability that there could have been fatalities had a gun been used.  It's also kind of silly to think that everybody would have the presence of mind to immediately recognize what what happening, turn and run.  When one hears a loud, unexpected sharp noise in a hallway, the immediately thought is probably not going to be "GUN!!!  RUN!!!".  It's more likely going to be "Huh?  What was that?".  Multiple shots could be fired before everybody in that hallway realizes what the **** is going on.

Also, what the individuals involved think is irrelevant to the overall conversation.  They would hardly have objective, non-biased opinions.  But if I were to speculate, I would guess that the stab victims are probably thinking "I'm glad he didn't have a gun".

Finally, theoretically, would one dead person be better than 20 injured persons?  Is that what we, as a society, should accept as a reasonable trade off?

I'm saying a 16 y/o, with no experience with firearms, running down a hallway and randomly squeezing off shots is not the same as an ex-military sniper sitting in a tower with a high powered rifle.    I think you'd be surprised at how quickly people run away from the sound of a gunshot. 

I think the opinion of those involved are far more relevant than the opinions of internet dipshits arguing in a simsports forum.    If I were to speculate, the last 15 stabbing victims are thinking "If only there had been a warning sound, I could have gotten out of the way."

Theoretically, I think so.  Might not be a very popular opinion but 20 people are emotionally scarred for the rest of their lives.   Can they ever feel safe in a public setting?  Is that how anyone wants to live the next 60 years?
4/11/2014 9:31 AM
burnsy483
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I would guess that if you asked any of those 20 people if they would trade them being stabbed for someone else in their school dying, they wouldn't do that.  

I think you may be exaggerating the overall emotional distress of those who were hurt.

We also don't know what would have happened had this kid had a gun.  Maybe the guy who tackles him doesn't, and is shot instead.  Maybe it's 30 people dead.  To argue what's essentially "knives, guns, whatever" is silly.  One weapon is obviously worse to be using than the other.
4/11/2014 9:36 AM
burnsy483
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Posted by tecwrg on 4/11/2014 9:19:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/11/2014 9:09:00 AM (view original):
And, because we love to repeat stuff around here, I'm all for tougher gun laws.  Make it harder to get guns.   Make the penalty for having/using an unregistered gun substantial.   

But don't assume that will stop random act of violence fatalities. 
Well, I agree with all of what you're saying here.
I would assume tougher gun laws would decrease the amount of those fatalities.
4/11/2014 9:38 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 4/11/2014 9:36:00 AM (view original):
I would guess that if you asked any of those 20 people if they would trade them being stabbed for someone else in their school dying, they wouldn't do that.  

I think you may be exaggerating the overall emotional distress of those who were hurt.

We also don't know what would have happened had this kid had a gun.  Maybe the guy who tackles him doesn't, and is shot instead.  Maybe it's 30 people dead.  To argue what's essentially "knives, guns, whatever" is silly.  One weapon is obviously worse to be using than the other.
I wouldn't even venture a guess as to what those 20 kids would trade.

My first place was a ****** trailer in a bad neighborhood.   Not surprisingly, I was the victim of a B&E.   They didn't get much because I didn't have much but the feeling I had when I walked in has never left me.   I imagine being a victim of a stabbing while chatting with your friends is a school is much more emotionally distressing.  

Maybe the kid blows his brains out before he goes to school.  Maybe a cop sees him carrying a gun to school and shoots him on the spot.   So, yeah, we don't know what would have happened.    Maybe that's the silly argument.
4/11/2014 9:45 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 4/11/2014 9:38:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 4/11/2014 9:19:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/11/2014 9:09:00 AM (view original):
And, because we love to repeat stuff around here, I'm all for tougher gun laws.  Make it harder to get guns.   Make the penalty for having/using an unregistered gun substantial.   

But don't assume that will stop random act of violence fatalities. 
Well, I agree with all of what you're saying here.
I would assume tougher gun laws would decrease the amount of those fatalities.

Based on what?  

4/11/2014 9:48 AM
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