All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Yogi Berra, Allan Barra (no relation)
4/21/2014 10:47 AM
Call it "Stats above average player" because that's what it is.    But SAAP will make people think it's related to the Spanish channel or something.
4/21/2014 10:50 AM
Someone who understands what the stat means and how it's applied, won't rip it for its name.  If you don't understand it, like tec and the guy who wrote the article, but decide to judge it anyway, it might sound funny.  
4/21/2014 10:52 AM
FWIW, SAAP is a decent stat.   It's no shocker that a player who hits .300 with 23 homers is more valuable than a player who hits .237 with 9 homers.   SAAP, as I think it should be called, simply tries to quantify how much better.  But it discounts some of the things the old-timers hold dear(W, RBI, RS) because they aren't "individual" stats.    Which isn't the worst thing on earth but the SAAP disciples openly mock those stats.   So there's more pushback to SAAP than there should be.
4/21/2014 10:53 AM
A guy with a WAR of 5, on average, should have contributed about 5 additional wins to his team than the replacement level player would have.  It's not perfect and shouldn't be looked at as a perfect stat.
4/21/2014 10:54 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/21/2014 10:52:00 AM (view original):
FWIW, SAAP is a decent stat.   It's no shocker that a player who hits .300 with 23 homers is more valuable than a player who hits .237 with 9 homers.   SAAP, as I think it should be called, simply tries to quantify how much better.  But it discounts some of the things the old-timers hold dear(W, RBI, RS) because they aren't "individual" stats.    Which isn't the worst thing on earth but the SAAP disciples openly mock those stats.   So there's more pushback to SAAP than there should be.
Yes, stats that rely on your team playing well aren't ideal.  There are better stats.

Why are you talking about Spanish stats?
4/21/2014 10:58 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/21/2014 10:54:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/21/2014 10:52:00 AM (view original):
FWIW, SAAP is a decent stat.   It's no shocker that a player who hits .300 with 23 homers is more valuable than a player who hits .237 with 9 homers.   SAAP, as I think it should be called, simply tries to quantify how much better.  But it discounts some of the things the old-timers hold dear(W, RBI, RS) because they aren't "individual" stats.    Which isn't the worst thing on earth but the SAAP disciples openly mock those stats.   So there's more pushback to SAAP than there should be.
Yes, stats that rely on your team playing well aren't ideal.  There are better stats.

Why are you talking about Spanish stats?
I guess we could debate "clutch" hitting but I'm not interested in doing that.    Some guys hit better with RISP, some don't.    Some guys go 1st to 3rd with ease, others stop at 2nd.   Some pitchers gut it out when they don't have their best stuff and keep their team in the game, others give up 5 in 3 and take an early shower.   These sort of things can't be accounted for with SAAP.
4/21/2014 11:01 AM
Really mike, you're so starved for attention that you jump into a thread started by someone you blocked?

We'll all keep pretending that you aren't reading my posts. Wink.
4/21/2014 11:02 AM
You're right, they don't do it well. We could look at clutch hitting stats, close and late, RISP, etc for that too.  WAR is a stat that shows a player's value MUCH better than the stats you mentioned.  If you mock WAR for it's name, you just look silly to people who actually understand what the stat is trying to say.
4/21/2014 11:04 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/21/2014 10:39:00 AM (view original):
Posted by examinerebb on 4/18/2014 10:30:00 AM (view original):
I think he takes (like I take) exception to the name of the stat.  It tries to tell you a player is worth "x" number of wins.  In a sport where a pitcher can throw a no-hitter and lose.  Where a batter can hit three homeruns in a game and lose.  The stat is useful, but the name of the stat is moronic.
My guess is it's this.    Since I'm only reading half the thread(and no article), that's what I can surmise.   "WINS above replacement" makes it sound uber-important but, like all stats, it treats a 2 run homer in a 9-2 loss the same as it does a 2 run homer in a 4-3 win.   Obviously, the homer in the 2 run loss had nothing to do with a "win". 
Nothing says "informed opinion" like "I didn't read the article being discussed or half of the discussion surrounding the article, but here's what I think." Genius.
4/21/2014 11:09 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/21/2014 11:03:00 AM (view original):
You're right, they don't do it well. We could look at clutch hitting stats, close and late, RISP, etc for that too.  WAR is a stat that shows a player's value MUCH better than the stats you mentioned.  If you mock WAR for it's name, you just look silly to people who actually understand what the stat is trying to say.
One can mock WAR for it's name and still understand what it is attempting to quantify.

For instance, a guy leading the league in hitting is a pretty good hitter.   The guy leading the league in WAR is a pretty good player.   That said, both teams might be 24-41.   Batting average doesn't mention anything about "wins" in it's name.   And a guy leading the league in WINS above replacement isn't really doing much in the way of actual wins when his team is 17 games under .500.
4/21/2014 11:12 AM
The guy who finishes the season with a WAR of 5, generally, contributed to 5 wins to his team above a replacement level player, regardless of whether the team won 65 or 100 games.  You'll find players on the 100 win team has a lot of guys with high WAR and the 65 win team has a lot of guys with low WAR.  So mocking the stat for its name is kinda retarded.  It's Wins Above Replacement.  Not "ER DERRRR YOUR TEAM DOESN'T WIN GAMES, HOW IS YOUR WAR SO HIGH? STUPID STAT."
4/21/2014 11:12 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/21/2014 10:52:00 AM (view original):
FWIW, SAAP is a decent stat.   It's no shocker that a player who hits .300 with 23 homers is more valuable than a player who hits .237 with 9 homers.   SAAP, as I think it should be called, simply tries to quantify how much better.  But it discounts some of the things the old-timers hold dear(W, RBI, RS) because they aren't "individual" stats.    Which isn't the worst thing on earth but the SAAP disciples openly mock those stats.   So there's more pushback to SAAP than there should be.
The fail with WAR, or SAAP, or whatever you might want to call it, is that it attempts to boil performance down to a single number.  Yet it ignores those attributes of a player that either cannot be measured at all by statistics, or are measured incompletely or inaccurately.

I make fun of folks like BL (in particular) because he places so much emphasis on WAR while giving lip service acknowledgement that "it's not perfect", yet he keeps going back to the number as an indisputable measure of a player.

WAR is a stat that should be looked at in conjunction with MANY OTHER factors and weighed appropriately.  it should NOT be seen as the primary evaluating measure of a player's performance.

4/21/2014 11:14 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 4/21/2014 11:12:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 4/21/2014 10:52:00 AM (view original):
FWIW, SAAP is a decent stat.   It's no shocker that a player who hits .300 with 23 homers is more valuable than a player who hits .237 with 9 homers.   SAAP, as I think it should be called, simply tries to quantify how much better.  But it discounts some of the things the old-timers hold dear(W, RBI, RS) because they aren't "individual" stats.    Which isn't the worst thing on earth but the SAAP disciples openly mock those stats.   So there's more pushback to SAAP than there should be.
The fail with WAR, or SAAP, or whatever you might want to call it, is that it attempts to boil performance down to a single number.  Yet it ignores those attributes of a player that either cannot be measured at all by statistics, or are measured incompletely or inaccurately.

I make fun of folks like BL (in particular) because he places so much emphasis on WAR while giving lip service acknowledgement that "it's not perfect", yet he keeps going back to the number as an indisputable measure of a player.

WAR is a stat that should be looked at in conjunction with MANY OTHER factors and weighed appropriately.  it should NOT be seen as the primary evaluating measure of a player's performance.

WAR probably gives the best measurement of a player's performance more than any other stat does.  Nobody's said it's the only thing to look at.
4/21/2014 11:16 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 4/21/2014 11:13:00 AM (view original):
The guy who finishes the season with a WAR of 5, generally, contributed to 5 wins to his team above a replacement level player, regardless of whether the team won 65 or 100 games.  You'll find players on the 100 win team has a lot of guys with high WAR and the 65 win team has a lot of guys with low WAR.  So mocking the stat for its name is kinda retarded.  It's Wins Above Replacement.  Not "ER DERRRR YOUR TEAM DOESN'T WIN GAMES, HOW IS YOUR WAR SO HIGH? STUPID STAT."
And that's why the name is somewhat funny.   It really has nothing to do with wins.   It's a stat that attempts to measure individual performance in a team game.   No player truly "wins" a game.   Pitcher wins are largely ignored by WAR disciples because "He pitched long enough to get the win.  The rest of the team contributed!!!!"  WAR doesn't measure wins, it attempt to quantify a multitude of stats.
4/21/2014 11:22 AM
So call it something different if you want, I guess.  The stat attempts to measure how many more Wins a team had Above a Replacement level player based on how they played during the season.  It's pretty straightforward with its description.

I get what you're saying, the stat is more advanced, in that it's not as easy as "1 run scored...2 runs scored...3 runs scored...he has 3 runs scored!"  I know that scares people.
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All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Yogi Berra, Allan Barra (no relation)

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