Posted by moy23 on 6/13/2014 1:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/13/2014 12:09:00 PM (view original):
OK.  I can understand the idea of a dollar more on $40K as a 23 year old single guy in Kentucky, paying $650 a month in rent, partying it up, may not have as much value as later in life, when he makes $80K, but is married with a mortgage and saving money for his children's college tuition.  I understand that.  So let's say, for argument's sake, that the average guy who makes $40K has the same value on his next dollar than the average guy who makes $80K, or $150K, or $300K.  I don't agree with it, but I'll concede that for the sake of argument.

Now that said, someone who makes $25K is likely living paycheck-to-paycheck regardless of where he lives.  He values his next dollar more than income levels above him.  He needs to survive, he needs shelter, food, clothing.  

Someone who makes $1M is likely saving money, living comfortably, money probably isn't an issue for him.  If he's not, he's the exception rather than the rule.

Can you concede that the person making $1M values his next dollar less than the person making $25K? The lower class guy is concerned about paying rent, getting food.  The guy making a million will likely be going on a vacation within the next couple years.  One person needs most of his salary, another would likely be just as happy as he is now with a cut in his paycheck.

I think you are being too shortsighted....

The value of the LAST $ is that it can and should be used for retirement (or put away for future expenses like college educations which a high earner gets no subsidies or grant money for)

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/13/2014 1:41:00 PM (view original):
I don't think our tax system should be tailored to suit needs.   Our tax system is designed to fund the government so they can provide the services that it's citizens require.   ALL of it's citizens.   It only seems right that anyone with income helps foot that bill equally with regards to their income.

Unless, of course, we decide that paying more allows you more access.   Maybe poor people can only use roads between 3 AM and 5 AM.    Response time for police protection is 1 week.   You know, stuff like that.

Posted by bad_luck on 6/13/2014 1:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 6/13/2014 1:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/13/2014 12:09:00 PM (view original):
OK.  I can understand the idea of a dollar more on $40K as a 23 year old single guy in Kentucky, paying $650 a month in rent, partying it up, may not have as much value as later in life, when he makes $80K, but is married with a mortgage and saving money for his children's college tuition.  I understand that.  So let's say, for argument's sake, that the average guy who makes $40K has the same value on his next dollar than the average guy who makes $80K, or $150K, or $300K.  I don't agree with it, but I'll concede that for the sake of argument.

Now that said, someone who makes $25K is likely living paycheck-to-paycheck regardless of where he lives.  He values his next dollar more than income levels above him.  He needs to survive, he needs shelter, food, clothing.  

Someone who makes $1M is likely saving money, living comfortably, money probably isn't an issue for him.  If he's not, he's the exception rather than the rule.

Can you concede that the person making $1M values his next dollar less than the person making $25K? The lower class guy is concerned about paying rent, getting food.  The guy making a million will likely be going on a vacation within the next couple years.  One person needs most of his salary, another would likely be just as happy as he is now with a cut in his paycheck.

I think you are being too shortsighted....

The value of the LAST $ is that it can and should be used for retirement (or put away for future expenses like college educations which a high earner gets no subsidies or grant money for)

No one is saying that the money has no value.

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/13/2014 1:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/13/2014 1:41:00 PM (view original):
I don't think our tax system should be tailored to suit needs.   Our tax system is designed to fund the government so they can provide the services that it's citizens require.   ALL of it's citizens.   It only seems right that anyone with income helps foot that bill equally with regards to their income.

Unless, of course, we decide that paying more allows you more access.   Maybe poor people can only use roads between 3 AM and 5 AM.    Response time for police protection is 1 week.   You know, stuff like that.

What about they guy with a job in Wyoming who bikes to work through trails in the wilderness to his cabin without electricity or phones and no police for 20 miles? This citizen doesn't need the services the government is offering.  Don't generalize what the US citizen NEEDS. 

Posted by moy23 on 6/13/2014 2:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 6/13/2014 1:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 6/13/2014 1:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/13/2014 12:09:00 PM (view original):
OK.  I can understand the idea of a dollar more on $40K as a 23 year old single guy in Kentucky, paying $650 a month in rent, partying it up, may not have as much value as later in life, when he makes $80K, but is married with a mortgage and saving money for his children's college tuition.  I understand that.  So let's say, for argument's sake, that the average guy who makes $40K has the same value on his next dollar than the average guy who makes $80K, or $150K, or $300K.  I don't agree with it, but I'll concede that for the sake of argument.

Now that said, someone who makes $25K is likely living paycheck-to-paycheck regardless of where he lives.  He values his next dollar more than income levels above him.  He needs to survive, he needs shelter, food, clothing.  

Someone who makes $1M is likely saving money, living comfortably, money probably isn't an issue for him.  If he's not, he's the exception rather than the rule.

Can you concede that the person making $1M values his next dollar less than the person making $25K? The lower class guy is concerned about paying rent, getting food.  The guy making a million will likely be going on a vacation within the next couple years.  One person needs most of his salary, another would likely be just as happy as he is now with a cut in his paycheck.

I think you are being too shortsighted....

The value of the LAST $ is that it can and should be used for retirement (or put away for future expenses like college educations which a high earner gets no subsidies or grant money for)

No one is saying that the money has no value.

Yes.... But you are excluding the time value of money when you say the last dollar has less value than the first.

I can get a loan for a home, a car, an education.... But have you ever heard of a retirement loan? Stocking away excess money now is so important for retirement... And the sooner a person can start the better.

I could argue the last $ has more value than the first. That last dollar will be worth so much more in time with compounded interest while my new iPhone will be obsolete in a couple years and those smokes i bought will be gone in a day.

Posted by moy23 on 6/13/2014 2:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 6/13/2014 1:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 6/13/2014 1:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/13/2014 12:09:00 PM (view original):
OK.  I can understand the idea of a dollar more on $40K as a 23 year old single guy in Kentucky, paying $650 a month in rent, partying it up, may not have as much value as later in life, when he makes $80K, but is married with a mortgage and saving money for his children's college tuition.  I understand that.  So let's say, for argument's sake, that the average guy who makes $40K has the same value on his next dollar than the average guy who makes $80K, or $150K, or $300K.  I don't agree with it, but I'll concede that for the sake of argument.

Now that said, someone who makes $25K is likely living paycheck-to-paycheck regardless of where he lives.  He values his next dollar more than income levels above him.  He needs to survive, he needs shelter, food, clothing.  

Someone who makes $1M is likely saving money, living comfortably, money probably isn't an issue for him.  If he's not, he's the exception rather than the rule.

Can you concede that the person making $1M values his next dollar less than the person making $25K? The lower class guy is concerned about paying rent, getting food.  The guy making a million will likely be going on a vacation within the next couple years.  One person needs most of his salary, another would likely be just as happy as he is now with a cut in his paycheck.

I think you are being too shortsighted....

The value of the LAST $ is that it can and should be used for retirement (or put away for future expenses like college educations which a high earner gets no subsidies or grant money for)

No one is saying that the money has no value.

Yes.... But you are excluding the time value of money when you say the last dollar has less value than the first.

I can get a loan for a home, a car, an education.... But have you ever heard of a retirement loan? Stocking away excess money now is so important for retirement... And the sooner a person can start the better.

I could argue the last $ has more value than the first. That last dollar will be worth so much more in time with compounded interest while my new iPhone will be obsolete in a couple years and those smokes i bought will be gone in a day.

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/13/2014 2:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 6/13/2014 2:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 6/13/2014 1:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 6/13/2014 1:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/13/2014 12:09:00 PM (view original):
OK.  I can understand the idea of a dollar more on $40K as a 23 year old single guy in Kentucky, paying $650 a month in rent, partying it up, may not have as much value as later in life, when he makes $80K, but is married with a mortgage and saving money for his children's college tuition.  I understand that.  So let's say, for argument's sake, that the average guy who makes $40K has the same value on his next dollar than the average guy who makes $80K, or $150K, or $300K.  I don't agree with it, but I'll concede that for the sake of argument.

Now that said, someone who makes $25K is likely living paycheck-to-paycheck regardless of where he lives.  He values his next dollar more than income levels above him.  He needs to survive, he needs shelter, food, clothing.  

Someone who makes $1M is likely saving money, living comfortably, money probably isn't an issue for him.  If he's not, he's the exception rather than the rule.

Can you concede that the person making $1M values his next dollar less than the person making $25K? The lower class guy is concerned about paying rent, getting food.  The guy making a million will likely be going on a vacation within the next couple years.  One person needs most of his salary, another would likely be just as happy as he is now with a cut in his paycheck.

I think you are being too shortsighted....

The value of the LAST $ is that it can and should be used for retirement (or put away for future expenses like college educations which a high earner gets no subsidies or grant money for)

No one is saying that the money has no value.

Yes.... But you are excluding the time value of money when you say the last dollar has less value than the first.

I can get a loan for a home, a car, an education.... But have you ever heard of a retirement loan? Stocking away excess money now is so important for retirement... And the sooner a person can start the better.

I could argue the last $ has more value than the first. That last dollar will be worth so much more in time with compounded interest while my new iPhone will be obsolete in a couple years and those smokes i bought will be gone in a day.

I'm sorry, obviously I don't know your financial situation, but wouldn't you starve without income?

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/13/2014 2:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/13/2014 2:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 6/13/2014 2:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 6/13/2014 1:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 6/13/2014 1:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/13/2014 12:09:00 PM (view original):
OK.  I can understand the idea of a dollar more on $40K as a 23 year old single guy in Kentucky, paying $650 a month in rent, partying it up, may not have as much value as later in life, when he makes $80K, but is married with a mortgage and saving money for his children's college tuition.  I understand that.  So let's say, for argument's sake, that the average guy who makes $40K has the same value on his next dollar than the average guy who makes $80K, or $150K, or $300K.  I don't agree with it, but I'll concede that for the sake of argument.

Now that said, someone who makes $25K is likely living paycheck-to-paycheck regardless of where he lives.  He values his next dollar more than income levels above him.  He needs to survive, he needs shelter, food, clothing.  

Someone who makes $1M is likely saving money, living comfortably, money probably isn't an issue for him.  If he's not, he's the exception rather than the rule.

Can you concede that the person making $1M values his next dollar less than the person making $25K? The lower class guy is concerned about paying rent, getting food.  The guy making a million will likely be going on a vacation within the next couple years.  One person needs most of his salary, another would likely be just as happy as he is now with a cut in his paycheck.

I think you are being too shortsighted....

The value of the LAST $ is that it can and should be used for retirement (or put away for future expenses like college educations which a high earner gets no subsidies or grant money for)

No one is saying that the money has no value.

Yes.... But you are excluding the time value of money when you say the last dollar has less value than the first.

I can get a loan for a home, a car, an education.... But have you ever heard of a retirement loan? Stocking away excess money now is so important for retirement... And the sooner a person can start the better.

I could argue the last $ has more value than the first. That last dollar will be worth so much more in time with compounded interest while my new iPhone will be obsolete in a couple years and those smokes i bought will be gone in a day.

I'm sorry, obviously I don't know your financial situation, but wouldn't you starve without income?

Do you think there is anyone living in the US who has no income?   Or have they all starved?

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/13/2014 2:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/13/2014 2:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/13/2014 2:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 6/13/2014 2:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 6/13/2014 1:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 6/13/2014 1:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/13/2014 12:09:00 PM (view original):
OK.  I can understand the idea of a dollar more on $40K as a 23 year old single guy in Kentucky, paying $650 a month in rent, partying it up, may not have as much value as later in life, when he makes $80K, but is married with a mortgage and saving money for his children's college tuition.  I understand that.  So let's say, for argument's sake, that the average guy who makes $40K has the same value on his next dollar than the average guy who makes $80K, or $150K, or $300K.  I don't agree with it, but I'll concede that for the sake of argument.

Now that said, someone who makes $25K is likely living paycheck-to-paycheck regardless of where he lives.  He values his next dollar more than income levels above him.  He needs to survive, he needs shelter, food, clothing.  

Someone who makes $1M is likely saving money, living comfortably, money probably isn't an issue for him.  If he's not, he's the exception rather than the rule.

Can you concede that the person making $1M values his next dollar less than the person making $25K? The lower class guy is concerned about paying rent, getting food.  The guy making a million will likely be going on a vacation within the next couple years.  One person needs most of his salary, another would likely be just as happy as he is now with a cut in his paycheck.

I think you are being too shortsighted....

The value of the LAST $ is that it can and should be used for retirement (or put away for future expenses like college educations which a high earner gets no subsidies or grant money for)

No one is saying that the money has no value.

Yes.... But you are excluding the time value of money when you say the last dollar has less value than the first.

I can get a loan for a home, a car, an education.... But have you ever heard of a retirement loan? Stocking away excess money now is so important for retirement... And the sooner a person can start the better.

I could argue the last $ has more value than the first. That last dollar will be worth so much more in time with compounded interest while my new iPhone will be obsolete in a couple years and those smokes i bought will be gone in a day.

I'm sorry, obviously I don't know your financial situation, but wouldn't you starve without income?

Do you think there is anyone living in the US who has no income?   Or have they all starved?

Sure.  Should I assume something about moy based on the fact that others have survived without income? I feel like that would be stupid, no?

If you feel you wouldn't starve, would you be able to live where you're living now?  I'm confused how you think the dollar you earned in the last x seconds you worked is somehow more valuable than the first dollar.

If I had no income, would my circumstances change?   Is that your question?   Of course they would.    How long would I have to be without income?  Forever?  Because, if I could generate some income within a reasonable time period, I wouldn't have to move.    You know why?  Circumstances I've created.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/13/2014 2:54:00 PM (view original):
Then why'd you quote me then ask a question?  That makes no sense.

Posted by MikeT23 on 6/13/2014 12:31:00 PM (view original):
I know what you're trying to prove.   Nonetheless, circumstances dictate everything.   Remember when I mentioned multi-million dollar home being foreclosed in CA?  Hell, I'll give you something closer to home.

Remember Lenny Dykstra?    Look up his story.

Posted by bad_luck on 6/13/2014 2:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 6/13/2014 2:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 6/13/2014 1:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 6/13/2014 1:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 6/13/2014 12:09:00 PM (view original):
OK.  I can understand the idea of a dollar more on $40K as a 23 year old single guy in Kentucky, paying $650 a month in rent, partying it up, may not have as much value as later in life, when he makes $80K, but is married with a mortgage and saving money for his children's college tuition.  I understand that.  So let's say, for argument's sake, that the average guy who makes $40K has the same value on his next dollar than the average guy who makes $80K, or $150K, or $300K.  I don't agree with it, but I'll concede that for the sake of argument.

Now that said, someone who makes $25K is likely living paycheck-to-paycheck regardless of where he lives.  He values his next dollar more than income levels above him.  He needs to survive, he needs shelter, food, clothing.  

Someone who makes $1M is likely saving money, living comfortably, money probably isn't an issue for him.  If he's not, he's the exception rather than the rule.

Can you concede that the person making $1M values his next dollar less than the person making $25K? The lower class guy is concerned about paying rent, getting food.  The guy making a million will likely be going on a vacation within the next couple years.  One person needs most of his salary, another would likely be just as happy as he is now with a cut in his paycheck.

I think you are being too shortsighted....

The value of the LAST $ is that it can and should be used for retirement (or put away for future expenses like college educations which a high earner gets no subsidies or grant money for)

No one is saying that the money has no value.

Yes.... But you are excluding the time value of money when you say the last dollar has less value than the first.

I can get a loan for a home, a car, an education.... But have you ever heard of a retirement loan? Stocking away excess money now is so important for retirement... And the sooner a person can start the better.

I could argue the last $ has more value than the first. That last dollar will be worth so much more in time with compounded interest while my new iPhone will be obsolete in a couple years and those smokes i bought will be gone in a day.

Time value has nothing to do with it. I'm saying that you can only drink so much orange juice before you no longer want orange juice and you're saying, "yeah, but oranges grow on trees."

Here is the curve, the x axis is money/shoes/cars/retirement account balances. The y axis is the utility of x: