Adrian Beltre Topic

Ichiro led the league in hits 7 times, BA twice, IBB 3 times, SB once, won MVP, ROY and 10 consecutive GG/AS appearances. 

Beltre led the league in hits, doubles and HR one time each.    He also managed 4 GG.


Yeah, you're right, it is an absurd comparison.    Ichiro strolls into the HOF on his accomplishments alone.   His historical significance and iconic status are just icing on the cake.
7/28/2014 11:01 AM
Wow, good job with the cherry picking. If only Beltre led the league in intentional walks more often.
7/28/2014 11:30 AM
Looking at their entire careers:

Ichiro
.317/.360/.412
110 OPS+
112 HR
370 net SB
58.7 WAR

Beltre
.284/.335/.480
115 OPS+
391 HR
71 net SB
74.8 WAR

Ichiro did that while playing great defense in right field. Beltre did that while playing great defense at third base. I'd take Beltre. If Ichiro had played his early 20's in the US instead of Japan, maybe it's a different story. 

7/28/2014 12:09 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/25/2014 11:56:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/25/2014 11:27:00 AM (view original):
Listing a few individual players as examples doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner does. Why do you think that is?
.
You're really ignoring this?
7/28/2014 12:24 PM
What sort of answer do you need?    Ellsbury is considered the better player. 
7/28/2014 12:26 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/25/2014 2:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/25/2014 11:57:00 AM (view original):
If a player could play 2B and hit, he was moved from 2B in 1970?
I know you're not as old as me but do you disagree that "Strong D up the middle" has a different meaning now?

Felix Millan has been replaced by Jeff Kent/Ian Kinsler.
Mark Belanger has been replaced by Cal Ripken/Derek Jeter. 

Of course, this is impossible for me to prove, but don't you think the "glove first" at certain positions has given way to "Can his bat make up for his defensive restrictions?"
Mark Belanger isn't a HOFer.  Cal Ripken and Derek Jeter are first ballot HOFers.  

Players in the 50s/60s were certainly weaker hitters than they are now, so yes, there were fewer great hitting shortstops, 2nd basemen, 3rd baseman, etc.  It doesn't mean that those positions aren't also still "defensive" positions in the sense that it's harder to find great hitters who can play those positions than it is to find great hitters to play 1st base and right field.
7/28/2014 12:27 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 12:26:00 PM (view original):
What sort of answer do you need?    Ellsbury is considered the better player. 
He's twice as good?
7/28/2014 12:27 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/25/2014 11:50:00 AM (view original):
It actually does.   In 1970, you're right.   Today, not so much.   Players aren't stereotyped as "offensive/defensive" players and put in the appropriate position.   If a guy can play 2B and hit, he plays 2B.    The only position that seems to move hitters away is catcher(Mauer/Harper come to mind).  But that's just a wear and tear thing.   
And this was your answer.
7/28/2014 12:27 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/25/2014 2:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/25/2014 11:57:00 AM (view original):
If a player could play 2B and hit, he was moved from 2B in 1970?
I know you're not as old as me but do you disagree that "Strong D up the middle" has a different meaning now?

Felix Millan has been replaced by Jeff Kent/Ian Kinsler.
Mark Belanger has been replaced by Cal Ripken/Derek Jeter. 

Of course, this is impossible for me to prove, but don't you think the "glove first" at certain positions has given way to "Can his bat make up for his defensive restrictions?"
Mark Belanger isn't a HOFer.  Cal Ripken and Derek Jeter are first ballot HOFers.  

Players in the 50s/60s were certainly weaker hitters than they are now, so yes, there were fewer great hitting shortstops, 2nd basemen, 3rd baseman, etc.  It doesn't mean that those positions aren't also still "defensive" positions in the sense that it's harder to find great hitters who can play those positions than it is to find great hitters to play 1st base and right field.

I see you missed the point.

Belanger was replaced by Nomar.   Better?

7/28/2014 12:28 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 12:26:00 PM (view original):
What sort of answer do you need?    Ellsbury is considered the better player. 
He's twice as good?
Ellsbury's salary was set by the open FA market.
7/28/2014 12:29 PM
Posted by tecwrg2 on 7/28/2014 12:29:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 12:26:00 PM (view original):
What sort of answer do you need?    Ellsbury is considered the better player. 
He's twice as good?
Ellsbury's salary was set my the open FA market.
Are you arguing that Gardner would have gotten something close to Ellsbury's contract in the open market?
7/28/2014 12:31 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 12:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/25/2014 2:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/25/2014 11:57:00 AM (view original):
If a player could play 2B and hit, he was moved from 2B in 1970?
I know you're not as old as me but do you disagree that "Strong D up the middle" has a different meaning now?

Felix Millan has been replaced by Jeff Kent/Ian Kinsler.
Mark Belanger has been replaced by Cal Ripken/Derek Jeter. 

Of course, this is impossible for me to prove, but don't you think the "glove first" at certain positions has given way to "Can his bat make up for his defensive restrictions?"
Mark Belanger isn't a HOFer.  Cal Ripken and Derek Jeter are first ballot HOFers.  

Players in the 50s/60s were certainly weaker hitters than they are now, so yes, there were fewer great hitting shortstops, 2nd basemen, 3rd baseman, etc.  It doesn't mean that those positions aren't also still "defensive" positions in the sense that it's harder to find great hitters who can play those positions than it is to find great hitters to play 1st base and right field.

I see you missed the point.

Belanger was replaced by Nomar.   Better?

Belanger made 1 All-Star game.  Nomar made 6.  Nomar was considered a better player.

Belanger was replaced by Omar Vizquel.
7/28/2014 12:32 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 12:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/25/2014 11:50:00 AM (view original):
It actually does.   In 1970, you're right.   Today, not so much.   Players aren't stereotyped as "offensive/defensive" players and put in the appropriate position.   If a guy can play 2B and hit, he plays 2B.    The only position that seems to move hitters away is catcher(Mauer/Harper come to mind).  But that's just a wear and tear thing.   
And this was your answer.
Answer to why Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner? What?
7/28/2014 12:33 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg2 on 7/28/2014 12:29:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 12:27:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 12:26:00 PM (view original):
What sort of answer do you need?    Ellsbury is considered the better player. 
He's twice as good?
Ellsbury's salary was set my the open FA market.
Are you arguing that Gardner would have gotten something close to Ellsbury's contract in the open market?
No.

But when you're comparing a salary that was determined by the open market to a salary that was not, you're comparing apples to oranges.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by comparing salaries.
7/28/2014 12:33 PM
Why do you think Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner does?
7/28/2014 12:36 PM
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Adrian Beltre Topic

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