All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Adrian Beltre
7/24/2014 9:02 PM
Posted by cobra on 7/24/2014 9:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/24/2014 12:17:00 PM (view original):
I don't think Ozzie Smith was close to the best defender of all time at the SS position.  He was a flashy show-off.  But best defensive SS of all time?  No.  A better SS than Beltre is a 3B?  Hard for me to say...
Curiosity got the best of me.

Who do you think the greatest defensive shortstop is baseball was/is?
I've already asked for a short list.  He hasn't answered.  

I assume because it's easy to say "No ******* way" as opposed to make a legit argument.
7/25/2014 1:24 AM
Posted by cobra on 7/24/2014 9:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/24/2014 12:17:00 PM (view original):
I don't think Ozzie Smith was close to the best defender of all time at the SS position.  He was a flashy show-off.  But best defensive SS of all time?  No.  A better SS than Beltre is a 3B?  Hard for me to say...
Curiosity got the best of me.

Who do you think the greatest defensive shortstop is baseball was/is?
Omar Vizquel
7/25/2014 1:24 AM
Ozzie is easily top five
7/25/2014 5:40 AM
Mark Belanger
7/25/2014 10:28 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/24/2014 12:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/24/2014 12:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/24/2014 10:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/24/2014 10:15:00 AM (view original):
Gold glove quality defender at 3rd base, 3000 hits, 3rd most homers of any 3rd baseman? It was said earlier, but people forget that 3rd base isn't really an "offensive" position.  He's an obvious vote if he continues this pace.
Please list the "offensive" positions in order of "offense produced".
Corner outfielders and first basemen seem to be more "offensive" positions.  There aren't too many fantastic offensive third basemen in history.
Don't you think the definitions have changed over the years?    I can name players from "defensive" positions who can hit and "offensive" positions that can't.    The league isn't "OK, we put two fast guys at 1, 2 in the order.  Then our 1B, DH and LF will hit.   Then we'll fill in the rest."
There are many more first basemen who can hit than there are third basemen. And if you don't have a first baseman and right fielder who can hit, you're probably in trouble offensively.
7/25/2014 10:34 AM
Also, Rey Ordonez before injuries was insane. Obviously for a very short time.
7/25/2014 11:09 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/25/2014 10:28:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/24/2014 12:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/24/2014 12:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/24/2014 10:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/24/2014 10:15:00 AM (view original):
Gold glove quality defender at 3rd base, 3000 hits, 3rd most homers of any 3rd baseman? It was said earlier, but people forget that 3rd base isn't really an "offensive" position.  He's an obvious vote if he continues this pace.
Please list the "offensive" positions in order of "offense produced".
Corner outfielders and first basemen seem to be more "offensive" positions.  There aren't too many fantastic offensive third basemen in history.
Don't you think the definitions have changed over the years?    I can name players from "defensive" positions who can hit and "offensive" positions that can't.    The league isn't "OK, we put two fast guys at 1, 2 in the order.  Then our 1B, DH and LF will hit.   Then we'll fill in the rest."
There are many more first basemen who can hit than there are third basemen. And if you don't have a first baseman and right fielder who can hit, you're probably in trouble offensively.
Who do you think is the better offensive player, Gardner or Ellsbury?   Which one plays the tougher defensive position?   Machado or Chris Davis?   Pedroia or Victorino? Longoria or Myers(pre-injury)?

This isn't 1970 anymore, gramps. 
7/25/2014 11:27 AM
Listing a few individual players as examples doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner does. Why do you think that is?
7/25/2014 11:50 AM
It actually does.   In 1970, you're right.   Today, not so much.   Players aren't stereotyped as "offensive/defensive" players and put in the appropriate position.   If a guy can play 2B and hit, he plays 2B.    The only position that seems to move hitters away is catcher(Mauer/Harper come to mind).  But that's just a wear and tear thing.   
7/25/2014 11:56 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/25/2014 11:27:00 AM (view original):
Listing a few individual players as examples doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Ellsbury makes twice as much as Gardner does. Why do you think that is?
.
7/25/2014 11:57 AM
If a player could play 2B and hit, he was moved from 2B in 1970?
7/25/2014 1:28 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/25/2014 11:09:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/25/2014 10:28:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/24/2014 12:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/24/2014 12:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/24/2014 10:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/24/2014 10:15:00 AM (view original):
Gold glove quality defender at 3rd base, 3000 hits, 3rd most homers of any 3rd baseman? It was said earlier, but people forget that 3rd base isn't really an "offensive" position.  He's an obvious vote if he continues this pace.
Please list the "offensive" positions in order of "offense produced".
Corner outfielders and first basemen seem to be more "offensive" positions.  There aren't too many fantastic offensive third basemen in history.
Don't you think the definitions have changed over the years?    I can name players from "defensive" positions who can hit and "offensive" positions that can't.    The league isn't "OK, we put two fast guys at 1, 2 in the order.  Then our 1B, DH and LF will hit.   Then we'll fill in the rest."
There are many more first basemen who can hit than there are third basemen. And if you don't have a first baseman and right fielder who can hit, you're probably in trouble offensively.
Who do you think is the better offensive player, Gardner or Ellsbury?   Which one plays the tougher defensive position?   Machado or Chris Davis?   Pedroia or Victorino? Longoria or Myers(pre-injury)?

This isn't 1970 anymore, gramps. 
You're missing the point. It's not, "this guy hits for power, he has to play first or left field."

There are a lot more guys capable of playing first base or left field at the major league level than there are guys capable of playing third or short. The increased number of able players lead to more offensive competition. You have to be able to hit a lot more to make it to the majors as a first baseman than you do to make it as a shortstop.
7/25/2014 2:07 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/25/2014 11:57:00 AM (view original):
If a player could play 2B and hit, he was moved from 2B in 1970?
I know you're not as old as me but do you disagree that "Strong D up the middle" has a different meaning now?

Felix Millan has been replaced by Jeff Kent/Ian Kinsler.
Mark Belanger has been replaced by Cal Ripken/Derek Jeter. 

Of course, this is impossible for me to prove, but don't you think the "glove first" at certain positions has given way to "Can his bat make up for his defensive restrictions?"
7/25/2014 2:13 PM
I'm thinking about three players in particular.

Banks, Carew and Killebrew.

Banks and Carew were moved to 1B in the middle of their careers.   I can't recall anyone ever saying "Dudes played with iron gloves" about either one.
Killebrew bounced back and forth between OF, 1B and 3B his entire career. 

Do you not think, in today's game, that they play SS, 2B and 3B, respectively, while a Prince Fielder type plays 1B?
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