Where are the HBD players? Topic

Mike, have you suggested the varying world sizes to the admin et al and got a response back? Great idea just curious what they said. If anything.
11/25/2014 2:48 AM
I have not.   Suggestions over the last several years have been nothing short of pointless. 
11/25/2014 6:49 AM
World size is an interesting idea.  I wonder if there are any big programming issues to deal with...i.e. instead of having 1 template, you now have 4-6 different templates.  Then changing a world from one to another template.  I imagine if that part was easy, this suggestion might have legs...
11/25/2014 7:45 AM
I have no idea how "seperate" parts of the game are tied together but schedules/playoffs are easy.   Just don't know how that would affect player generation.  If it's not tied together, I wouldn't change that part of the game.   You'll just have better players on all teams(fill out 20 rosters instead of 32) but the game would play the same.   A 75 player would just produce 71 stats because he wouldn't get to play against 67s anymore. 
11/25/2014 7:49 AM
Mike, to answer your question from page 3: I've told three (re: actively tried to explain the game to them) people about HBD, one is in his second season and thinking about joining a second world, another is finishing up his first season and anxious for next because of what he learned this year, and the third tried it but decided it just wasn't for him.

11/25/2014 9:07 AM
Then you are a success story.   You should tell more people.  
11/25/2014 9:12 AM
Well to be fair those are only the people that I actively tried to get to play, knowing they would be more likely to play than others. I've told more about it if they see me updating lineups or something but never expected those people to be interested, but I feel like everyone has done that and it isn't really an attempt at getting a new player to try it out.
11/25/2014 6:32 PM
I'm in a couple of worlds where it's obvious that the pro-activeness of the commissioner is THE major factor in determining a quick start to the next season. In one, the commish starts getting a feel for who is returning around game 120, and has a forum ad up and running during the playoffs for the next season. In the other, a forum didn't go up until after rollover. The 1st World has little turnover, while the 2nd has a core group, but consistently has around 8 openings a season. Owners obviously recognize this and seek out Worlds like the first scenario, which leaves Worlds like the 2nd hurting to fill.

As others have mentioned in this thread, I think the varying world size could help with some of the problems.
One idea I have goes like this; there would only be 2 World sizes - the standard 32, and a 24. Healthy worlds stay at 32 and move along normally. Worlds struggling to fill are dropped to 24 team worlds and considered on probation for their first 24 team season. During that entire probation season, the commish should/will be looking for owners to get back to 32 for the following season. if this can not be accomplished, that world is then placed into the merger pool. Once four worlds are in the pool, those 96 teams are merged into three 32 team worlds, and all commissioners are stripped of their duties, with a vote on new commissioners taking place as part of the beginning of a new season. I have details worked up for the various merging details, schedules, playoff format, etc that make it straight-forward and simple, but that's too much for this already winded post.
11/25/2014 6:47 PM (edited)
"....and all commissioners are stripped of their duties" - you know. we all don't do this for the glory. You make it sound like we went to OCS school and if we don't measure up, we get busted down to Corporal.
I really like the variable world size (but, as previously stated, it will never happen. Nothing will ever happen again). But let the small worlds stay small, there's no need to try and get them back to 32. And if a commish isn't up to the task, then the world will die or the owners who still care will force him out.
11/25/2014 7:41 PM
Putting the blame on the HBD commissioners is misguided. I don't think any of them signed up for spending hours of their lives recruiting. I'm sure it takes enough time to deal with stuff that pops up in most worlds and filling a few spots that will always open up in most worlds most seasons.

Every commissioners can't be above average. I'm sure those who spend a lot of time recruiting in effective ways have worlds the fill faster. Some are bringing in new people to play.  Many are better described as better fisherman in a shrinking pond.  Every GM they bring into their world by being an excellent commish is an open spot in another world. At some point, having fewer and fewer "good" worlds with "good" commissioners will reach a point where HBD doesn't pay for the electricity it takes to run it.

Giving commissioners more power is not a workable idea. I've seen more than one commissioner melt down.  Not just stop doing the job in any way, which is bad enough. They turned on people who paid money to play.  Used what little power they have for their own interests. Changed world rules because they got mad at someone.  WIS can't run a business if anyone who volunteers to be a commissioners can then toss out anyone they want or change the rules as they like.
11/26/2014 2:21 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/22/2014 12:35:00 PM (view original):
I've said this before but I'll say it again.   It's a limited market.   Anyone interested in simsports probably knows how to use a search engine.   And, if you search "sim baseball", it's right there. 

I'm not sure how much advertising is needed.   Some would be nice but, again, I'm pretty sure anyone seeking a site like this has the know-how to find it.
One of the key elements of advertising / marketing is selling something to you that you didn't know you wanted.  Sure, if there are people ACTIVELY looking for simsports, they'll find WIS, but who the hell is actively looking to get addicted to fake baseball?  

On the other hand, it's unfortunate that they're not trying to rope in the passive users.  It's the same concept as the boxes of candy at the checkouts at grocery stores.  Sure, if I'm out and about and am ACTIVELY looking for candy I know exactly where to go to get it, but most of the time I'm in the store for other reasons, looking for other crap like milk and bread until BAM I'm conveniently reminded that I definitely also wanted Skittles and Kit-Kats today.  That's a thing, you know?  

If they wanted to make more money they'd buy some ad-space on Yahoo and mlb.com in their fantasy baseball sections
11/26/2014 2:39 PM
I won't blame commishes for failure but there are few easy steps to follow(and they're not time consuming):

1. treat everyone fairly
2. put the best interests of the world first
3. find out who's staying/leaving sooner rather than later
4. start recruiting early even if you don't know if you have openings
5. remove absentee owners promptly
6. enforce rules evenly(or create rules that the world wants)
7. vet new owners.  Check their record, ask someone you recognize about them in a world they're in, etc, etc

None of this takes a great deal of time.   And you'll find that the commishes of the "good" worlds do every one of these.  And, if you don't have that sort of time, pass it on to someone who does.

As far as more power, I'm not even sure what that is.  I disagree that waiting 14 days, regardless of the owner, to replace a missing owner is always the best idea.   14 days in the middle of the season isn't so bad.   14 days at the start of a season is.    I disagree that early transfers can't be done if owner took over as a replacement in another world recently.  I pled my case, WifS relented.   I disagree that "problem" owners are given 72 chances before WifS will act.   One guy blowing up the chat every 3 days can run people off.  An lame duck owner making stupid trades needs to be removed(good worlds will veto but then you have to worry about him finding another way to wreck the team for the next guy).   But, if you give a commish the power to replace an owner, that power will be abused within days. 
11/26/2014 2:48 PM
tufft, I will somewhat disagree.  One common trait of the stronger, more successful worlds, is an attentive and dedicated commissioner.  One common trait about the less successful worlds, the ones that have 8-12 openings every single season and may take 1, 2 or even 3 months to fill and roll into the next season, is that they have less dedicated commissioners.  Or at least commissions who just don;t have the time or desire to do it right.

My tec2 ID takes on a lot of replacement teams, so I've spent nearly entire or partial seasons in a countless number of different worlds.  I've seen the extremes in terms of commissioners.  Some are very good and very attentive; some come across as wanting to feel that they are committed but just don't have the knowledge or the desire to do what is necessary; and others . . . well, I just get the feeling that they have the title of commissioner because nobody else in the world wanted it, or because they just wanted to get the additional $5 credit every season for doing the job.

I've seen teams get abandoned for weeks or even month or two, and the commish make no effort to replace them.  I've seen situations where other owners point out "Hey, Sheboygan's owner hasn't checked in for six weeks" in the world chat, and the commish respond "If anybody wants to try to find a new owner for that team, go ahead".  That's supposed to be THEIR JOB.  I've seen commissioners tanking to improve their draft position.

11/26/2014 2:51 PM
Posted by pjfoster13 on 11/26/2014 2:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/22/2014 12:35:00 PM (view original):
I've said this before but I'll say it again.   It's a limited market.   Anyone interested in simsports probably knows how to use a search engine.   And, if you search "sim baseball", it's right there. 

I'm not sure how much advertising is needed.   Some would be nice but, again, I'm pretty sure anyone seeking a site like this has the know-how to find it.
One of the key elements of advertising / marketing is selling something to you that you didn't know you wanted.  Sure, if there are people ACTIVELY looking for simsports, they'll find WIS, but who the hell is actively looking to get addicted to fake baseball?  

On the other hand, it's unfortunate that they're not trying to rope in the passive users.  It's the same concept as the boxes of candy at the checkouts at grocery stores.  Sure, if I'm out and about and am ACTIVELY looking for candy I know exactly where to go to get it, but most of the time I'm in the store for other reasons, looking for other crap like milk and bread until BAM I'm conveniently reminded that I definitely also wanted Skittles and Kit-Kats today.  That's a thing, you know?  

If they wanted to make more money they'd buy some ad-space on Yahoo and mlb.com in their fantasy baseball sections
I addressed this a few days ago.    Using National Enquirer at the supermarket checkout as an example.

If someone tries HBD as a whim purchase, I'm guessing they're gone before ST starts.   It's not overly complicated but it appears to be.   And that makes if more time consuming than it needs to be.   $15 isn't life-changing money.   It's a tip after a meal of a burger, fries and two beers.
11/26/2014 2:54 PM

The folks who thought of and coded HBD did something I consider remarkable. The SIM engine isn't perfect, IMO, but it is VERY good.  And everything around that, for a version 1.0, 1.1, 1.2 of a game is remarkably good.

For pretty much everything other than the game simulation, time is passing it by.  Gaming has never been a bigger industry.  MLB seems to be doing fine. Yet, this game seems to have fewer and fewer players every year.

Making changes to the existing structure, like allowing 24 or 16 person worlds, doesn't address the big stuff. Yes, it will help some worlds fill faster.  That could also be done by setting a maximum number of days for a world to roll and then have bots run any unclaimed teams.  Almost all of that logic is in the existing code.

Where HBD has failed while other strategy and simulations games have boomed is how the game is organized at the most fundamental level.  Since HBD has been released, a gaming model that works has been developed and (at least for now) perfected.

HBD was designed to #1 be about The World and #2 about the fake players.  #3, at best, is the humans who play the game.  I'm not claiming anyone could have done better the year HBD was launched.  But I think there's a lot of evidence that if anyone was going to start from scratch and create an MLB simulation, they'd need to make it a lot more about the humans and less about a very rigid game structure.

Everything about the marketing of HBD sucks. From the lack of ads to the **** landing page to what happens next if someone signs up. Of course FOX knows this. They just don't want to do anything about it.  (Mike could not be more wrong about how advertizing works. He won't change his mind, so I won't debate it with him.)

If someone wants to signup and play today, they can't. They can signup, but they can't start playing for what is typically days to weeks.  That's just not how gaming works now (if it ever did).  People want what they want now. This is a foundation problem. Fix this and other problems are swept away. Don't fix this, and a large percentage of first time buyers will turn away or ask for their money back.

HBD penalizes success. If you do really, really good, you get to have a dominant team. And then people don't want to play in that world, because it has a team that always wins 100+ games and wins the WS too often. How many other games can you name that penalize success?

HBD has no escalation.  Winning a WS (or making the playoffs) should be rewarded by allowing us (or forcing us) to play against better competition next season.  Instead, we have to chose to start over in what we hope is a more competitive world or keep playing against the same level of competition. And it is just "hope", because there's easy way to evaluate the level of GMs in a world.

HBD takes a lot of time. So do many other strategy games that are booming. The main difference is HBD requires us to play on the game's schedule, not ours.

Why can't we set budgets and make some other moves (release, maybe resign, etc,) the day the world roles instead of a random 24 hour period when the game says we can?

Why can't we get email or text notifications when something happens that needs our attention? An ML player got hurt.  An SP at any level will start at below 80 in 2 days if you don't make a change.  A position player will start below 90 in 2 days if we don't take action.  We have a trade proposal or a message from another player? That's how gaming works now. We don't have to log in 3-6 times a day to see how things are going.  They game sends appropriate messages so we don't burn out logging in 3-6 times a day only to find out 90%+ of the time there's nothing that really needs to be done.  If you were trying to create a game to burn people out, you'd copy HBD.

Why can't we rank draft picks all season instead of smaller time period?

The FA process could not be any more human hostile. There are a lot of successful auction websites and ways to run a auction that are designed around what's best for the person bidding, not what's best for the thing being auctioned (in this case, fake players). HBD could change to any one of those models and FA bidding would take less time, be more fair, and have just as much if not more strategy.

Why can't we take our teams and bring them into a world we want to be in?  That's how every successful game I can think of works. As you get better at the game, you can take what you've created and play that team (or that character) in different or more competitive scenarios. Or, if you want, you can chose to start from scratch and grow another team or character.  In HBD, we are stuck in the world with our team. This is another foundational flaw in the current game. World history is cool and all that, but I'd toss that in a second to be able to play my team(s) against better competition.  That doesn't not mean the team would disappear from a world if it started in new world. They players are not real.  They can be copied any number of times.

Some sort free or $1 trial to make it easy to start.  Disable features in that version (like trading).  That model works in pretty much every industry, including gaming.

Contests - FOX wants more people to sign up?  Everyone who wins a WS goes into a drawing. Winner gets a trip to the World Series or All Star Game. (I know there's more to this, but tiny companies do stuff like this all the time.)

Making more money  - Why aren't there ads all over this site? How much money if FOX ******* away every day on that alone? There are games that live on nothing but advertising money. At least at the entry level. Want more features and fewer ads?  Pay more money. It's just silly we don't have ads on the world home page and have to click through at least one ad per session to get to a 2nd screen.

I realize this post is too long. FOX / WIS won't do any of this. But it's out there for someone to run with.  The problem isn't that an MLB simulation can't have more customers. The problem is in how this particular website is doing it. They blazed a trail. All praise for that.  And then they chose not to improve or extend that trail. That's not a criticism.  Just an observation.

11/26/2014 3:38 PM
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Where are the HBD players? Topic

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