As an Orioles fan, I'm probably pretty far off from NY-biased, but I still think Posada is a HOF catcher.  He's 5th all time among players with 5000+ PAs as a catcher in OPS - ahead of Mauer, Bench, Berra, Torre, and both guys called Pudge.

Posted by dahsdebater on 12/25/2015 1:33:00 PM (view original):
As an Orioles fan, I'm probably pretty far off from NY-biased, but I still think Posada is a HOF catcher.  He's 5th all time among players with 5000+ PAs as a catcher in OPS - ahead of Mauer, Bench, Berra, Torre, and both guys called Pudge.

Meh.

As someone with NY-bias, Posada is not a HOFer.   Jeez.

Ever since Bill Mazeroski and Gary Carter were voted in (along with a few others) it has become the Hall Of Mediocrity, so maybe in that sense Posada is worthy.

Next we'll see Bobby effin Grich in there...

I think the standards for catchers to get into the HOF are just wrong.  Yogi Berra is the 4th most modern catcher in the Hall.  That just feels wrong.  I think there have been at least 5 guys voted in at every other position in the time 3 catchers have gotten in.  It's a position that inherently tends to shorten your career and make it difficult to sustainably produce big offensive numbers.  Totally a different animal than any other position on the diamond.  The offensive standards are generally lower for middle infielders and center fielders because they are perceived as having greater defensive value and importance, and the concept is that it's harder to find super-elite hitters who can also hold them down defensively.  But playing SS or CF doesn't really cut into your offensive production relative to playing 1B or RF in the same way that catching does.  Add in the fact that it's easily the most important defensive position on the field, and it becomes clear why the offensive standards shouldn't be anything like what they are at any other position.

The odd thing I've found is that most reasonably knowledgeable baseball fans will, in principle, agree with all of that.  They'll say that catchers are intrinsically valuable, that they're arguably the most important players on the field - almost certainly if you don't include the pitcher - and that they should have lower standards for HOF inclusion.  And then they go say virtually nobody deserves to get in.

Everybody wants Jeter to get in with his .817 career OPS, in part because of all his titles.  Posada has all the same titles and an .848 career OPS at a far more physically demanding defensive position.  He got a lot less plate appearances because he was a catcher.  That's how it goes.  He started 1450 games at catcher, it's not a huge number, but it's a lot.

I could put him in for scoring this



but his career has a Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neill, Andy Pettite feel to it.  Truth is, had Jeter not been the "face of the franchise", I don't know that he's a first ballot type of guy.  As a Yankee fan during those title runs, excluding starting pitchers, I felt the Yankee success hinged more on Rivera, Jeter, Williams.  Now that could be because he wasn't really a part f the 96 team and was a part-time player in 97 or, due to the rigors of the job, you knew he'd miss 20-30 games every year.   Admittedly, I probably didn't appreciate the fact that the Yanks were getting .275/20/80 from him every year when most teams would have loved that from the C position but Bernie was cranking out .300/20/100 from CF and playing every day.  I don't know that anyone would argue that either of them were elite fielders.   Neither of them have the "feel" of a HOF career.

At the end of the day, "but Jeter" will fall on deaf ears.   He was the leader of a very successful team for an extended period of time.  He gets more credit than the rest, deservedly or not.   It's the fame part of the Hall of Fame.

Posted by dahsdebater on 12/26/2015 10:58:00 AM (view original):
I think the standards for catchers to get into the HOF are just wrong.  Yogi Berra is the 4th most modern catcher in the Hall.  That just feels wrong.  I think there have been at least 5 guys voted in at every other position in the time 3 catchers have gotten in.  It's a position that inherently tends to shorten your career and make it difficult to sustainably produce big offensive numbers.  Totally a different animal than any other position on the diamond.  The offensive standards are generally lower for middle infielders and center fielders because they are perceived as having greater defensive value and importance, and the concept is that it's harder to find super-elite hitters who can also hold them down defensively.  But playing SS or CF doesn't really cut into your offensive production relative to playing 1B or RF in the same way that catching does.  Add in the fact that it's easily the most important defensive position on the field, and it becomes clear why the offensive standards shouldn't be anything like what they are at any other position.

The odd thing I've found is that most reasonably knowledgeable baseball fans will, in principle, agree with all of that.  They'll say that catchers are intrinsically valuable, that they're arguably the most important players on the field - almost certainly if you don't include the pitcher - and that they should have lower standards for HOF inclusion.  And then they go say virtually nobody deserves to get in.

The general qualifications for being a HOFer - really in any sport - is (usually):

Longevity (being very good for a long time)
Dominance (being the best, or 'one of the very best' in the game for a significant part of your career (I usually think 50%). Similar to Longevity, and it usually goes hand in hand, but they are different. Chuck Klein is in because of dominance (first 6-7 years) but had no real Longevity.
Recognition (Think awards)
Big moments (Think being a significant producer during a playoff run. Big moments that last forever.)
Breaking Records

I don't think a player has to hit every one of those, but there has to be some combination. I think for a catcher to hit those benchmarks, its really tough. Hense, there's not many catchers.

Lets look at Posada -

Longevity (being very good for a long time)
     Well, having a .475 SLG percentage for your career is certainly pretty good for most players, especially a catcher. If you take out the scabs (Javy Lopez and Mike Napoli - who were DH's at C), he's top 10-12 all time for catchers - and all are HOFers (or will be). Add to that that he was hitting it out and driving in runs at a respectable clip all the way into his late 30s. I think he's a plus here.

Dominance (being the best, or 'one of the very best' in the game for a significant part of your career (I usually think 50%)
     He was considered one of the better catchers of his time, But I'm not sure I would consider him 'dominant'. I usually heard 'I-Rod', Piazza, before I heard Posada.

Recognition (Think awards)
     From 2000 to 2004, along with 2007 he was an all star, silver slugger, and even got some MVP votes. So I guess that counts for something.

Big moments (Think being a significant producer during a playoff run)
     He certainly contributed in the post season throughout his career, but no big, signature moments.

Breaking Records
     Nothing to speak of here.

So I think - even if you give catchers a little rope, Posada isn't a slam-dunk HOFer. I kinda lump him with Dale Murphy.

Posted by dahsdebater on 12/26/2015 10:58:00 AM (view original):
I think the standards for catchers to get into the HOF are just wrong.  Yogi Berra is the 4th most modern catcher in the Hall.  That just feels wrong.  I think there have been at least 5 guys voted in at every other position in the time 3 catchers have gotten in.  It's a position that inherently tends to shorten your career and make it difficult to sustainably produce big offensive numbers.  Totally a different animal than any other position on the diamond.  The offensive standards are generally lower for middle infielders and center fielders because they are perceived as having greater defensive value and importance, and the concept is that it's harder to find super-elite hitters who can also hold them down defensively.  But playing SS or CF doesn't really cut into your offensive production relative to playing 1B or RF in the same way that catching does.  Add in the fact that it's easily the most important defensive position on the field, and it becomes clear why the offensive standards shouldn't be anything like what they are at any other position.

The odd thing I've found is that most reasonably knowledgeable baseball fans will, in principle, agree with all of that.  They'll say that catchers are intrinsically valuable, that they're arguably the most important players on the field - almost certainly if you don't include the pitcher - and that they should have lower standards for HOF inclusion.  And then they go say virtually nobody deserves to get in.

I don't know. I wish we had a reliable way to evaluate catcher defense. Posada's offensive value isn't far from Berra, but with 1000 less PAs. I don't know if the Jeter comparison is valid. Assuming you're a big hall guy, Jeter clearly belongs. You'd have to be a tiny hall guy to not include him. That isn't true of Posada. He really doesn't compare well to other HOF catchers in WAR or Jaws rankings. But if you toss out methods that incorporate defense and look at offense only, maybe he belongs.

Some good arguments for Jorge both for and against. I think he's borderline. He put up some great offensive numbers. His defense was inconsistent. Some seasons he was great, some seasons he was poor and most he was somewhere in the middle. One thing I would say that goes against him is I never found him to be a fundamentally very smart baseball player. He was a bad base runner and some Yankee pitchers didn't like having him as a battery mate. But he was also a winner and if the game was on the line you'd trust Jorge to get a big hit.

I'd like to see him in the HOF. There are a lot worse in the hall than Jorge.

IRod and Piazza should be slam dunks. Piazza was a bad defender but his bat more than made up for it. IRod one of the greatest all time catchers.

I haven't back tracked on this thread, but if you are debating Posada a name that should be brought up is Ted Simmons. Simmons was a solid hitter and defensive catcher, had longevity, and arguably is one of the best overall players at that position in the history of the game. I think perhaps he doesn't have the FAME aspect on his side playing for the Cardinals and Brewers for most of his career. He is my go to catcher in Sim....and not any one particular season of his....I've used many.

I hate to see a lot of undervaluing on this site for Jeter. I think many of us remember some of his final years when we should look at his greatest years on all the championships. Jeter was often in the middle of rallies, or making a great defensive play, and outright leading championship teams. Numbers don't always tell the full story...and with that said, his numbers ain't too shabby.

Griffey and Piazza.  Mike got in before Roger.

Posted by raucous on 1/6/2016 7:39:00 PM (view original):
Griffey and Piazza.  Mike got in before Roger.

And you are shocked?

Curious to see how Manny does with voters. I'm thinking about the same as Sheffield and Sosa.