There's nothing wrong with poaching.  It happens all the time in real life so it should happen in the game as well.  Only change I'd make to weaken poaching is to give more weight to a guaranteed start promise and have recruits generated with a preference for early playing time similar to the close to home/far from home preference.  A lower tiered recruit that get's "poached" late in the process but has a high preference for early playing time may not consider a Big 6 school recruiting them to sit the bench for 2-3 years.  

also, the "learn from it" part isn't about finding a way not to get poached. its about understanding that you can get poached, and that when you recruit a guy who really looks like he can play in the BCS conferences, that there is a significantly elevated risk of poaching. so, you need a backup plan. or, you can roll the dice. but, know you are rolling the dice, and plan accordingly. i think that is the point. 

i have no problem with mrg's stance of avoiding poaching and stopping that courtesy for those who poach him. perfectly reasonable stance, IMO. 

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/17/2016 2:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mrg1037 on 1/17/2016 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dacj501 on 1/17/2016 1:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mrg1037 on 1/17/2016 12:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by duke137 on 1/17/2016 11:54:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/17/2016 11:32:00 AM (view original):
I poach.

Are you proud of that Trentonjoe? I mean put yourself in the other coaches shoes. He's coaching a mid major D-I school, has battled with another mid major team for 3 days. Finally the recruit commits to his school, and then from out of no where, when signing hour is near, comes a power 6 school, and immediately snatches up all the hard work, and feelings of accomplishment that this coach has generated over 3 days of hard work. Is this a fair system, or practice? I've had the shoe on that foot, so I know exactly how it feels, and it's not a very good feeling. I've actually written "hate" mail to coaches who have done this to me in the past, and you know what? They never reply. They are too important, or too cowardly, to even reply back. i mean how can you really sit here, and intelligently defend a cowardly, lazy, ruthless, indiscriminate, practice like"POACHING". It's totally INDEFENSIBLE!!!

"Finally the recruit commits to his school"

Wrong. Being in the lead before signings means nothing. The recruit commits when he signs.

I have been poached many times. I've done it myself a few times (although I do try to avoid it whenever feasible). When you get poached you have two options:

A. Start complaining in either in the forum, coaches corner, or in a sitemail to the other coach
B. Make a mental note about who that coach is. Build up your own program, or move to a better one. Give the other guy a dose of his own medicine.

there's a third option - Don't take it personally. Learn from it how to be a better recruiter. Get better at the game (without the "dose of his own medicine bullshit")

Bullshit? Poaching is 100% legal, and I don't take it personally. But there's no denying that it really hurts the team you do it to (I'm talking about jumping on a guy right at signings). Because of that I generally avoid poaching outside of special situations. However, I'm not going to extend that courtesy to a guy who's poached my guys in the past.

Another thing. You can't avoid ever getting poached again by "learning from it". If you're at a lower prestige D1 school and you never get poached, you aren't targeting good enough players.

good, a reasonable post.

i just want to share my perspective on other teams poaching me vs jumping me along the way. i would MUCH MUCH rather get poached. why? then i risk losing exactly 1 recruit. and, maybe i can fight and win. when folks jump in and battle me along the way, it drives me nuts, because even though in many cases they are being idiots and fighting a battle they can't win, it makes me look weak! it puts my entire class at risk!

this is true for me both at A+ BCS schools and mid majors. i coach a mid major now, and the most frustrating part is all the other Bish prestige guys in my range (i started on a d+ like everyone else). they don't poach me - i wish they did. instead they go around getting in a half dozen battles, way over extending themselves, wrecking not only their own recruiting session, but everyone else's. please - poach me instead! if you have a big upper hand on me, so be it, i lose, and i have exactly 0 problem with that. but to battle me for a guy you probably can't even win, making it your 4th concurrent battle, man, that drives me nuts. i mean, i don't hold it against those coaches - they just have no idea how to properly play this game. but it sure is frustrating as hell.

Interesting perspective - I agree in some situations, but not all. An example - I just started a rebuild at Georgetown. I got on a pretty good local center the first cycle, had him tight. Higher prestige team jumped on him at 5 PM signing day. As a result I had time to take a different (less talented) center from a lower prestige team who was recruiting cross-country. If he had "poached" at 8 PM, the other center would have already signed and I would have been left with just the scraps that nobody else wanted.

So in that scenario I was certainly glad he went earlier. Although I completely understand your point about guys engaging you in battles they can't win.

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/17/2016 2:21:00 PM (view original):
also, the "learn from it" part isn't about finding a way not to get poached. its about understanding that you can get poached, and that when you recruit a guy who really looks like he can play in the BCS conferences, that there is a significantly elevated risk of poaching. so, you need a backup plan. or, you can roll the dice. but, know you are rolling the dice, and plan accordingly. i think that is the point. 

i have no problem with mrg's stance of avoiding poaching and stopping that courtesy for those who poach him. perfectly reasonable stance, IMO. 

perhaps I misinterpreted what Give him a dose of his own medicine meant. I took it as sounding vindictive, but also see how it could simply mean should the opportunity to extend a courtesy or not arise. 

edit - hell, I've still got a special place reserved for a couple of Rupp Big 10 mates, so I understand from that angle...I've just also seen people post about specifically targeting a coach's recruits in the future solely because they had "poached", and that doesn't sit right. Apologies for my share of the misunderstanding. 

i agree mrg, its not a 100% one way, or the other. i just wanted to make the point that getting jumped along the way isn't as great (relative to being poached) as some people seem to think :) it definitely is nice to have warning so you can make a backup plan, but that can come with a real cost, if you plan to fight. when its a david-vs-goliath, no chance to win type of thing, it is nice to get jumped earlier (and often that is the case, but yeah, i agree when its poaching instead, that does suck!)

the strange thing here, is that in the case here in the thread, it was neither - FSU jumped way late when signings were long past, didn't he? any recruit who is in a tough, close battle, i mean you can't really be counting on that guy, you could lose the battle, or someone else with literally no other valid targets (which is why i want more decent recruits generated) sees the battle still open and jumps in. its not even poaching, by the usual definition...

Posted by dacj501 on 1/17/2016 2:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/17/2016 2:21:00 PM (view original):
also, the "learn from it" part isn't about finding a way not to get poached. its about understanding that you can get poached, and that when you recruit a guy who really looks like he can play in the BCS conferences, that there is a significantly elevated risk of poaching. so, you need a backup plan. or, you can roll the dice. but, know you are rolling the dice, and plan accordingly. i think that is the point. 

i have no problem with mrg's stance of avoiding poaching and stopping that courtesy for those who poach him. perfectly reasonable stance, IMO. 

perhaps I misinterpreted what Give him a dose of his own medicine meant. I took it as sounding vindictive, but also see how it could simply mean should the opportunity to extend a courtesy or not arise. 

edit - hell, I've still got a special place reserved for a couple of Rupp Big 10 mates, so I understand from that angle...I've just also seen people post about specifically targeting a coach's recruits in the future solely because they had "poached", and that doesn't sit right. Apologies for my share of the misunderstanding. 

lol, the funny thing is, we are definitely on all of their lists :) we've poached quite a bit there, which honestly is my first bout with in-conference poaching, but it makes me think its actually not a problem, and that only poaching out of conference has too much of a collusion-y feel to it. especially for "nested" schools, like for us (edit, us = michigan state), there's nobody outside the big-10 who could ever poach us, within reason (CUSA-rupp, girts pet project where they made a mid major the #1 conference, gave us a girt/acn coached marshall, who was an exception. but most worlds' Michigan states don't have to contend with that).

those "nested" schools would basically be immune to poaching, under the current paradigm, where most folks avoid in-conference poaching. doesn't really seem fair, that some schools can't get poached, while conference mates of theirs are fighting other conferences left and right. makes it awful unfair when MSU and a conference mate shows up on a recruit. we use that to our great advantage, and our conference mates will DEFINITELY poach us, after all we've done. despite that, its STILL a big advantage, because we know they are still more likely to suffer from spreading thin, because they are on the border of the conf, facing some heavy hitters from other conferences who won't think twice to swipe players off of them. if we hadn't poached our way up, and had a lollipops and ice cream relationship with our conference mates, like so many do, i don't see how those guys could ever fight us on a guy we showed up on early. it would be their doom, we'd be insulated from any ramifications. its really made me feel like the in-conference poaching "gentleman's rule", which i played by for ~6 years, is really not good for the game.

Posted by darnoc29099 on 1/17/2016 12:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by duke137 on 1/17/2016 11:54:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/17/2016 11:32:00 AM (view original):
I poach.

Are you proud of that Trentonjoe? I mean put yourself in the other coaches shoes. He's coaching a mid major D-I school, has battled with another mid major team for 3 days. Finally the recruit commits to his school, and then from out of no where, when signing hour is near, comes a power 6 school, and immediately snatches up all the hard work, and feelings of accomplishment that this coach has generated over 3 days of hard work. Is this a fair system, or practice? I've had the shoe on that foot, so I know exactly how it feels, and it's not a very good feeling. I've actually written "hate" mail to coaches who have done this to me in the past, and you know what? They never reply. They are too important, or too cowardly, to even reply back. i mean how can you really sit here, and intelligently defend a cowardly, lazy, ruthless, indiscriminate, practice like"POACHING". It's totally INDEFENSIBLE!!!

This is just nutty.

When does "poaching" (which there's NO such thing as, in my opinion) start?  The 2nd cycle?  Day 4?  What if a coach can't start recruiting until day 2 or 3?  Are they just supposed to take whatever scraps are left?  If recruiting was a rush to get considered by all the guys you like as quickly as you can then it'd be pretty damn boring.

There's no "dibs" button in HD.  A recruit isn't your until he signs.  You don't want to lose recruits late?  Then pay more attention to schools near you, their prestige, what they're doing during recruiting, and estimate how much money they have left at signings.  If that's too much work then D1 isn't for you.

And this is coming from a guy that just lost two, 5-star recruits at signings in Crum (and nearly a 4-star as well).  I didn't get "poached."  Other teams with more resources saved and utilized those resources better than I did.  Plain and simple.  

Welcome to Division 1 recruiting.  I hope you enjoy your stay.

I agree for the most part.  I'm not against "poaching". It's part of the game. The part I object to, and where I think HD recruiting is broken, is that too often the game leaves the "poached" team in a position from which they can't recover.  To suggest that if you don't want to lose recruits late then you should "pay more attention to schools near you, their prestige and what they're doing during recruiting ..." is an unrealistic, oversimplified solution.  By that logic anyone who is not an A prestige or higher would be better served sitting out recruiting altogether until the cycle before signings to guard against every possible scenario that could happen.  Either that or they should aim so low so as to ensure no one else will want their recruits.  Neither is reasonable. 

I don't think FSU did anything wrong by poaching here but the recruiting process too often fails the losers of recruiting battles.  In RL teams lose recruiting battles all the time, it doesn't mean they have to take the 13 year old kid who mops the floors during the time outs as a walk on and this is the crux of the problem in this game and in this whole discussion. 

i agree with that possum. the game definitely has structural deficiencies in that area (the area of losing a poached player hurting so bad). when i say have a backup plan, i really don't mean to find another guy to fill the role - i mean, to position yourself where the guys you are taking risks on (the guys who you know are likely poaching targets), are not guys you can't live without this season. you only need 8 guys to run a non-press non-fb team, if they are arranged properly (3 guards 3 bigs 2 sfs). 10 is basically ideal. so, don't be recruiting a guy who is an absolutely stud as your 3rd guard, without signing another guard. its just too risky. i think thats the point of a backup plan, and paying attention around you helps you understand who is at risk. so, i think there is another option, other than the 2 you mention (sitting out, or aiming super low). that option is essentially to hope for the best but prepare for the worst...

but, that said, i pretty much agree with everything else, there needs to be a cushion to land on. learning d1 is hard enough, learning d1 with huge built in disadvantages is DEFINITELY hard enough. there should be a way to land softly after a mis-step or poor outcome, it doesn't need to be so cut-throat, especially for the folks still learning. i also think it should be easier for mid majors to work towards 1 stud (in their terms) per recruiting period. really, the combination of both is what fixes the problem, IMO.

Posted by dacj501 on 1/17/2016 2:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/17/2016 2:21:00 PM (view original):
also, the "learn from it" part isn't about finding a way not to get poached. its about understanding that you can get poached, and that when you recruit a guy who really looks like he can play in the BCS conferences, that there is a significantly elevated risk of poaching. so, you need a backup plan. or, you can roll the dice. but, know you are rolling the dice, and plan accordingly. i think that is the point. 

i have no problem with mrg's stance of avoiding poaching and stopping that courtesy for those who poach him. perfectly reasonable stance, IMO. 

perhaps I misinterpreted what Give him a dose of his own medicine meant. I took it as sounding vindictive, but also see how it could simply mean should the opportunity to extend a courtesy or not arise. 

edit - hell, I've still got a special place reserved for a couple of Rupp Big 10 mates, so I understand from that angle...I've just also seen people post about specifically targeting a coach's recruits in the future solely because they had "poached", and that doesn't sit right. Apologies for my share of the misunderstanding. 

No problem - I did not mean to specifically target another coach's recruits. Only that, should a situation arise where poaching him would improve my team, I would do it without hesitation. And I'd time it whenever it suited me best, even if it really hurt him.

Posted by possumfiend on 1/17/2016 2:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by darnoc29099 on 1/17/2016 12:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by duke137 on 1/17/2016 11:54:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/17/2016 11:32:00 AM (view original):
I poach.

Are you proud of that Trentonjoe? I mean put yourself in the other coaches shoes. He's coaching a mid major D-I school, has battled with another mid major team for 3 days. Finally the recruit commits to his school, and then from out of no where, when signing hour is near, comes a power 6 school, and immediately snatches up all the hard work, and feelings of accomplishment that this coach has generated over 3 days of hard work. Is this a fair system, or practice? I've had the shoe on that foot, so I know exactly how it feels, and it's not a very good feeling. I've actually written "hate" mail to coaches who have done this to me in the past, and you know what? They never reply. They are too important, or too cowardly, to even reply back. i mean how can you really sit here, and intelligently defend a cowardly, lazy, ruthless, indiscriminate, practice like"POACHING". It's totally INDEFENSIBLE!!!

This is just nutty.

When does "poaching" (which there's NO such thing as, in my opinion) start?  The 2nd cycle?  Day 4?  What if a coach can't start recruiting until day 2 or 3?  Are they just supposed to take whatever scraps are left?  If recruiting was a rush to get considered by all the guys you like as quickly as you can then it'd be pretty damn boring.

There's no "dibs" button in HD.  A recruit isn't your until he signs.  You don't want to lose recruits late?  Then pay more attention to schools near you, their prestige, what they're doing during recruiting, and estimate how much money they have left at signings.  If that's too much work then D1 isn't for you.

And this is coming from a guy that just lost two, 5-star recruits at signings in Crum (and nearly a 4-star as well).  I didn't get "poached."  Other teams with more resources saved and utilized those resources better than I did.  Plain and simple.  

Welcome to Division 1 recruiting.  I hope you enjoy your stay.

I agree for the most part.  I'm not against "poaching". It's part of the game. The part I object to, and where I think HD recruiting is broken, is that too often the game leaves the "poached" team in a position from which they can't recover.  To suggest that if you don't want to lose recruits late then you should "pay more attention to schools near you, their prestige and what they're doing during recruiting ..." is an unrealistic, oversimplified solution.  By that logic anyone who is not an A prestige or higher would be better served sitting out recruiting altogether until the cycle before signings to guard against every possible scenario that could happen.  Either that or they should aim so low so as to ensure no one else will want their recruits.  Neither is reasonable. 

I don't think FSU did anything wrong by poaching here but the recruiting process too often fails the losers of recruiting battles.  In RL teams lose recruiting battles all the time, it doesn't mean they have to take the 13 year old kid who mops the floors during the time outs as a walk on and this is the crux of the problem in this game and in this whole discussion. 

If the poached team is in a position from which they cannot recover, whose fault is that? Learn how to recruit better. Learn from getting poached. Recruit a backup plan, or keep an eye on how many backup plans remain undecided. Reserve some money until after initial signings. These are the things that good recruiters do.

The best advice in this whole thread is, "pay more attention to the schools near you, their prestige, what they're doing during recruiting." That's how you become a good recruiter, but you just blew it off as an "unrealistic, oversimplified solution". It's not unrealistic. It's not oversimplified. It is the way the coaches in Big 6 conferences got there, and how they succeed there. If you are unwilling to put in that effort. drop back down to DII.

And I poach, and I get poached. It's just one of many recruiting tools and strategies. Deal with it.

This may be the whiniest of all the whiny threads ever in the HD forums. Whinier than "I'll never get to my alma mater / favorite school." Whinier than anything about recruit generation. Whinier than "HD is such a crapshoot". Whinier than that ridiculous "Jobs logic is broken" thread that pops up every few months. Much whinier than anything having to do with the -5 or "the press is magic." Whinier even than the "We need new world(s)" screeds. Unbelievable.

I fear this new generation that believes they are entitled to everything without having to work for it or actually earn it.

Posted by cbriese on 1/17/2016 2:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by possumfiend on 1/17/2016 2:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by darnoc29099 on 1/17/2016 12:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by duke137 on 1/17/2016 11:54:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/17/2016 11:32:00 AM (view original):
I poach.

Are you proud of that Trentonjoe? I mean put yourself in the other coaches shoes. He's coaching a mid major D-I school, has battled with another mid major team for 3 days. Finally the recruit commits to his school, and then from out of no where, when signing hour is near, comes a power 6 school, and immediately snatches up all the hard work, and feelings of accomplishment that this coach has generated over 3 days of hard work. Is this a fair system, or practice? I've had the shoe on that foot, so I know exactly how it feels, and it's not a very good feeling. I've actually written "hate" mail to coaches who have done this to me in the past, and you know what? They never reply. They are too important, or too cowardly, to even reply back. i mean how can you really sit here, and intelligently defend a cowardly, lazy, ruthless, indiscriminate, practice like"POACHING". It's totally INDEFENSIBLE!!!

This is just nutty.

When does "poaching" (which there's NO such thing as, in my opinion) start?  The 2nd cycle?  Day 4?  What if a coach can't start recruiting until day 2 or 3?  Are they just supposed to take whatever scraps are left?  If recruiting was a rush to get considered by all the guys you like as quickly as you can then it'd be pretty damn boring.

There's no "dibs" button in HD.  A recruit isn't your until he signs.  You don't want to lose recruits late?  Then pay more attention to schools near you, their prestige, what they're doing during recruiting, and estimate how much money they have left at signings.  If that's too much work then D1 isn't for you.

And this is coming from a guy that just lost two, 5-star recruits at signings in Crum (and nearly a 4-star as well).  I didn't get "poached."  Other teams with more resources saved and utilized those resources better than I did.  Plain and simple.  

Welcome to Division 1 recruiting.  I hope you enjoy your stay.

I agree for the most part.  I'm not against "poaching". It's part of the game. The part I object to, and where I think HD recruiting is broken, is that too often the game leaves the "poached" team in a position from which they can't recover.  To suggest that if you don't want to lose recruits late then you should "pay more attention to schools near you, their prestige and what they're doing during recruiting ..." is an unrealistic, oversimplified solution.  By that logic anyone who is not an A prestige or higher would be better served sitting out recruiting altogether until the cycle before signings to guard against every possible scenario that could happen.  Either that or they should aim so low so as to ensure no one else will want their recruits.  Neither is reasonable. 

I don't think FSU did anything wrong by poaching here but the recruiting process too often fails the losers of recruiting battles.  In RL teams lose recruiting battles all the time, it doesn't mean they have to take the 13 year old kid who mops the floors during the time outs as a walk on and this is the crux of the problem in this game and in this whole discussion. 

If the poached team is in a position from which they cannot recover, whose fault is that? Learn how to recruit better. Learn from getting poached. Recruit a backup plan, or keep an eye on how many backup plans remain undecided. Reserve some money until after initial signings. These are the things that good recruiters do.

The best advice in this whole thread is, "pay more attention to the schools near you, their prestige, what they're doing during recruiting." That's how you become a good recruiter, but you just blew it off as an "unrealistic, oversimplified solution". It's not unrealistic. It's not oversimplified. It is the way the coaches in Big 6 conferences got there, and how they succeed there. If you are unwilling to put in that effort. drop back down to DII.

Yes, I did blow off the "pay more attention to the schools near you, their prestige, what they're doing during recruiting" advice as oversimplified and unrealistic as a solution to the problem being discussed here because it is.  And I recruit just fine in the Big 6.  

Posted by cbriese on 1/17/2016 3:04:00 PM (view original):
This may be the whiniest of all the whiny threads ever in the HD forums. Whinier than "I'll never get to my alma mater / favorite school." Whinier than anything about recruit generation. Whinier than "HD is such a crapshoot". Whinier than that ridiculous "Jobs logic is broken" thread that pops up every few months. Much whinier than anything having to do with the -5 or "the press is magic." Whinier even than the "We need new world(s)" screeds. Unbelievable.

I fear this new generation that believes they are entitled to everything without having to work for it or actually earn it.

If stating facts is winning I guess I am whinning then. If it's whinning seems like a lot people have an opinion on the subject. Brought it up because its a major flaw of recruiting

Posted by cbriese on 1/17/2016 3:04:00 PM (view original):
This may be the whiniest of all the whiny threads ever in the HD forums. Whinier than "I'll never get to my alma mater / favorite school." Whinier than anything about recruit generation. Whinier than "HD is such a crapshoot". Whinier than that ridiculous "Jobs logic is broken" thread that pops up every few months. Much whinier than anything having to do with the -5 or "the press is magic." Whinier even than the "We need new world(s)" screeds. Unbelievable.

I fear this new generation that believes they are entitled to everything without having to work for it or actually earn it.

YES! I'm no longer the whiniest person on the forums!