Posted by The Taint on 1/30/2016 3:45:00 PM (view original):
Uhhh, you should probably check into Wilson's stretch of games this year without Lynch.  Historic numbers were put up.

But Thomas Rowles had great games too, along with Fred Jackson and another dude. The Seattle offense is run based, the O-line is great, it leaves open recievers for Wilson to throw too when the defense stacks the box. I like Wilson, I think he is a good QB, but he can't really be considered with those other guys until he plays in a pass oriented offense.

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/30/2016 2:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/30/2016 12:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/30/2016 10:11:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/30/2016 9:49:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/29/2016 11:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/29/2016 5:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/29/2016 12:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/29/2016 11:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/29/2016 10:14:00 AM (view original):
my rankings for the best quarterbacks in the NFL would be

P. Manning
Rodgers
Breese, Rivers, E. Manning, Brady, Big Ben, Palmer
Luck, Wilson, Newton
Romo
Cousins (as a redskins fan I had to include him, he had a good year this year as well)

There are tiers of QBs in my opinion, Peyton manning is #1 because of his football IQ and his work ethic. He has lost his arm strength so he might not actually be #1 at this moment but as of like 2-3 years ago he was. Rodgers is second because of his throwing mechanics, he has the quickest release in the NFL which wreaks havoc on opposing defenses because he gets rid of the ball before he can be touched, he makes up for a poor offensive line. After that there is a tie, I believe that these guys are about equal and how they perform better than the other is because of a better team. The next tier after that is the young up and coming QBs, these are guys that given a few more years to gain football IQ will be dominant, though you can argue they already are. Then there is Romo, I had to include him so you crybaby cowboys fans don't whine that he is not on the list, he has good games and he has really had games, he is really injury prone, and he gets a boost from the best offensive line in the NFL, Dex Bryant, Jason Witten, and some other solid recievers. Than Kirk Cousins, from what I saw of him this year I have to include him in this group, he has a great completion percentage and he is fantastic at home, I truly believe that in a few years he will be top 7 in the NFL. I probably forgot someone but those are who come to mind.

I agree with most of the above, except I'd put Luck, Wilson, and Newton above Brady.

Luck has the arm and the intangibles. Wilson and Newton both are more athletic than Brady, with Wilson with more intangibles and Newton even more mobility.

It is hard to argue that Brady isn't in that first tier after Manning and Rodgers, he has good mechanics and a good football IQ. I have seen you insult Brady by saying that Brady is a game manager but your now saying that Wilson is better than Brady, but Wilson is the definition of a game manager, the reason the Seahawks won their super bowl and went to the next one which they should have won was that they had steller D, and Marshawn Lynch went beast mode, Russell Wilson just kept the game flow going. I do think that he can make plays when he needs to but it is not called upon him often to do so. Newton is Tim Tebow 2.0, he doesn't have a great passing game and he makes his living running the ball, but he wins just like Tim Tebow did (which is why I think Tim Tebow should have kept a spot in the league). I love how Newton plays with excitement and has fun with it but I don't think he is on par with the likes of Breese, Rivers and such just yet. Luck is the only one that I would consider moving up, he is a fantastic QB and I think is a second coming of P. Manning, fitting that he took over Manning's team. Luck has great mechanics and a great football IQ. But this year at least Luck struggled, he didn't make plays that won games, Hasselback showed him up somehow, even with his cane and arthritis in his legs. Luck did have a poor offense around him but it's hard to put him up with the best based on his performance this year. Brady deserves to be in that group and if you don't think so then you are just being ignorant, he is a great quarterback, not greatest of all time, not greatest of his time, but great, he can pick apart defenses and make clutch plays. Brady is overrated but he is a great QB. My rankings stand as I put them.

Brady has experience from playing for many years. Great. Any QB who manages to stay in the NFL and in particular on one team for that long has that - it doesn't show any special skill.

Wilson is not a game manager. He makes plays on a regular basis, particularly because he athletic and fleet of foot, including the ability to throw on the run. These are plays Brady cannot make, because Brady simply doesn't have those abilities. This is why Wilson is better and is not a game manager like Brady.

Newton is incredibly athletic, and the Tebow comparisons aren't accurate (and for the record, Tebow wasn't as bad a QB as many make him out to be - he had a lot of potential that never got shown).

You can keep your rankings as you put them. I'll just say you also over rate Brady - just not as much as many others do.

Wilson is a game manager in about 95% of games, he can make plays when called upon, which is not often, him being in the league for only a few years, surrounded by a great team just like Brady, he was carried to 2 Super Bowls in his first I think it's 4 years? Making plays on his feet is not Brady's forte, the short passing game is his forte as you have said. Wilson is one of the most athletic QBs in the NFL, and he is probably better with making plays on his feet than nearly everybody ahead of him on my list, that does not mean that he is a better quarterback as a whole, so saying that he is better than Brady because he is more athletic is ignoring the other factors of being a quarterback. I've played QB in real life and I was nowhere near being the most athletic player in my area, finding the right guy to throw to is to me at least the hardest part, Brady reads the field well and finds the right guy almost every time. I wast way to judge a great quarterback is the amount of recievers that catch their passes consistently, it shows that they are not just targeting the same two guys over and over and actually playing the position, everybody in the first 3 rows does that with the exception of maybe Big Ben. Wilson does not do that.

I am a fan of Tebow, I just wanted to point out some connections between the two. Tebow is a winner, he wins wherever he goes, he wins 8 straight games at Denver then he gets booted to be a back up on the Jets.

I now agree with some of the other people that have been saying Brady slept with your wife or something. I had read all of your arguments and I thought most of them were valid, but to say that he isn't in that group of QBs is just downright wrong and ignorant.

You don't seem to understand what a game manager QB is.

A game manager QB is one who doesn't have many (or sometimes any) difference making skills of their own. They are good enough overall to be in the NFL and even start, but the superior athleticism, arm, foot speed, etc. are not there.

Wilson actually makes a difference with speed and athleticism, extending plays, making throws on the run, etc. Brady does NONE of those things.

I'm a Tebow fan, too. Not an overly excited one like some people, mind you, but I thought he had skills that were certainly usable in the NFL and it shocked me that no team wanted him.

I think you're being ridiculous because I've put together a very good argument that Brady is over rated and not a great QB, but merely a good game manager.

No, a game manager is someone who is just relied on to make some simple plays and not mess up, and then allow everyone else to make plays, for Wilson that is Marshawn Lynch. Wilson doesn't go on the run to make plays often enough to be considered not a game maneger. He is exactly what you are claiming Brady is, just because he has the ability to make plays doesn't mean that he does it often.

Brady doesnt do any of those things, because that not the type of QB that be is, none of the quarterbacks in the first 3 rows do besides Big Ben.

Same here.

I wasn't trying to be pro Brady when I started this, I'm not a Brady fan, I'm not a patriots fan, I'm just being a fair and UNBIASED about this. I don't know what your bias is against Brady but it must be pretty bad if you won't even admit he's on the level of those QBs. I thought it was a fair placement of him, I was not trying to overplay him and say he is the best, the second best, but meerly saying he is tied for third with 5 other QBs.

A game manager is relied on the make simple plays and not mess up because they don't have the skills and abilities to do anything more.

Wilson has the skill and ability to make plays, and he does so often enough it absolutely puts him out of being a mere game manager.

Brady does NOT have those skills and abilities, which is a huge (and key) difference.

Being a game maneger doesn't have anything to do with being capable, it is a strategy by Pete Carroll, not asking Wilson to take chances, but only to hang the ball off to Marshawn Lynch and take advantage of 1 on 1 match ups when the defense puts like 7-8 in the box.

He does not make any more plays than Brady does.

I just think you are being a tad unfair to Brady, he is not the best, but he is defiantly top 8 like I put him.

A simple game manager is what you become if you're good enough to be an NFL starting QB overall but don't have difference making skills to do more than be a simple game manager.

How well you do it depends upon a number of factors, including the system you're in, the talent around you (including offensive line, receivers, and running backs) and the coaching.

In the case of Russel Wilson, he has the skills to be a difference maker, and he has used them on a number of occasions. The elusiveness, the speed, the athleticism, the ability to throw on the run...all have helped his team win. That's NOT a simple game manager.

Yes, perhaps Pete Carroll doesn't ask him to take chances. That's the same thing most coaches ask of most NFL QBs. That has nothing to do with being a game manager.

Wilson makes a great deal more plays than Brady does, because he has skills Brady does not. That's the point.

I don't really think you want to argue that Brady is as quick, fast, elusive, and athletic as Wilson or that he can throw on the run as well as Wilson. Those are difference making skills. Brady doesn't have those.

Posted by The Taint on 1/30/2016 3:45:00 PM (view original):
Uhhh, you should probably check into Wilson's stretch of games this year without Lynch.  Historic numbers were put up.

In four NFL seasons, Wilson is averaging over 600 rushing yards per season. Funny, Brady doesn't do that.

He also has completed over 64 percent of his passes, while a higher percentage of his completions go for 20+ and 40+ yards than what Brady does.

Despite throwing more downfield balls, Wilson has a very low interception percentage, similar to what Brady does with shorter throws that are less likely to be intercepted.

The guy's QB rating is over 101 for his career, and 2014 was the only of his four seasons when he was under a 100 QB rating (it was still a respectable 95). Brady's career average is 96.4, and other than 2014, Wilson has had a higher rating in every year than Brady.

Brady throws for more yardage, but he also attempts about 8-10 more passes per game than Wilson.

Given the above along with Wilson's rushing yardage, scrambling ability, athleticism, elusiveness, and ability to throw while on the run, he has been a far superior QB to Brady the past four seasons, which are all we have to directly compare.

If Wilson can keep up what he's been doing for several more seasons, there is no reason to think he can't be one of, if not the very best, QB in the NFL.

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/30/2016 4:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by The Taint on 1/30/2016 3:45:00 PM (view original):
Uhhh, you should probably check into Wilson's stretch of games this year without Lynch.  Historic numbers were put up.

But Thomas Rowles had great games too, along with Fred Jackson and another dude. The Seattle offense is run based, the O-line is great, it leaves open recievers for Wilson to throw too when the defense stacks the box. I like Wilson, I think he is a good QB, but he can't really be considered with those other guys until he plays in a pass oriented offense.

Wait a second here.

Wilson's numbers have been phenomenal for four seasons in the NFL now, but you want to discount him because he's spent that time playing for one team and one system.

Yet you think Brady is a good QB even though he's played on the same team in the same system for even longer. Why can't you say Brady can't really be considered among good QBs until he plays in a different offense that throws the ball downfield more often?

Brady's always had a good to great O-line and has played with some great other players on both sides of the ball. Everyone wants to crown him as an all time great, yet Wilson seems on the path to be far greater and no one is talking about he's on an HOF trajectory.

Posted by bistiza on 1/30/2016 5:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by The Taint on 1/30/2016 3:45:00 PM (view original):
Uhhh, you should probably check into Wilson's stretch of games this year without Lynch.  Historic numbers were put up.

In four NFL seasons, Wilson is averaging over 600 rushing yards per season. Funny, Brady doesn't do that.

He also has completed over 64 percent of his passes, while a higher percentage of his completions go for 20+ and 40+ yards than what Brady does.

Despite throwing more downfield balls, Wilson has a very low interception percentage, similar to what Brady does with shorter throws that are less likely to be intercepted.

The guy's QB rating is over 101 for his career, and 2014 was the only of his four seasons when he was under a 100 QB rating (it was still a respectable 95). Brady's career average is 96.4, and other than 2014, Wilson has had a higher rating in every year than Brady.

Brady throws for more yardage, but he also attempts about 8-10 more passes per game than Wilson.

Given the above along with Wilson's rushing yardage, scrambling ability, athleticism, elusiveness, and ability to throw while on the run, he has been a far superior QB to Brady the past four seasons, which are all we have to directly compare.

If Wilson can keep up what he's been doing for several more seasons, there is no reason to think he can't be one of, if not the very best, QB in the NFL.

Wilson is a different type of QB, that doesn't mean he's better. He is a dual threat, Brady is a pocket passer, there is something to be said for both. The majority of QBs in the NFL are pocket passers, and as I said earlier all of the best QBs are besides Big Ben, and even he isn't really dual threat. So to say Wilson is better than Brady because he can run, make athletic plays, scramble, you would also have to say he is better than everyone else because they can't do any of that either. Wilson is not as intelligent of a passer as Brady, as I have explained, he plays in a run oriented offense, he throws to his best two recievers (This year Graham, and Baldwin) the large majority of the time, and he plays against defenses that stack the box so he gets 1 on 1 coverage for his two best receivers. It's kind of hard to argue that he is as good as Brady when he throws way less passes, as you said 8-10, which makes a huge difference, it means the defense is thinking about stopping the run, there are less chances for interceptions, and there are less chances for incompletions to ruin his good QBR that you brought up, he is not relied upon to carry an offense, he probably will later in his career but not yet. Brady is relied upon to carry an offense, their run game is vertically non existent this season, don't argue with me on that I had Blount on my fantasy team. Wilson to going to be top 3 of his era I think, along with Luck, and either Newton, Tannihill, Cousins, Carr, or like Boartles or something. But he isn't in the top group just yet, for a lot of the reasons you say Brady is bad, he was carried by a STELLER defense, a great O-line, and a great running back to his first Super Bowl win and his second appearance, he can't be considered along with those guys until he is carrying an offense.

Posted by bistiza on 1/30/2016 5:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/30/2016 4:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by The Taint on 1/30/2016 3:45:00 PM (view original):
Uhhh, you should probably check into Wilson's stretch of games this year without Lynch.  Historic numbers were put up.

But Thomas Rowles had great games too, along with Fred Jackson and another dude. The Seattle offense is run based, the O-line is great, it leaves open recievers for Wilson to throw too when the defense stacks the box. I like Wilson, I think he is a good QB, but he can't really be considered with those other guys until he plays in a pass oriented offense.

Wait a second here.

Wilson's numbers have been phenomenal for four seasons in the NFL now, but you want to discount him because he's spent that time playing for one team and one system.

Yet you think Brady is a good QB even though he's played on the same team in the same system for even longer. Why can't you say Brady can't really be considered among good QBs until he plays in a different offense that throws the ball downfield more often?

Brady's always had a good to great O-line and has played with some great other players on both sides of the ball. Everyone wants to crown him as an all time great, yet Wilson seems on the path to be far greater and no one is talking about he's on an HOF trajectory.

Brady had/has phenomenal numbers too but you are discounting that. All I'm saying is he's not the focus point for opposing defenses.

Brady now plays on a pass oriented offense, that's the difference.

I think that the playoff game against Denver proves that they don't have a great o-line this year, they were ripped to shreds by Ware and the other dude that I can't quite remember who, I think Von-Miller. Brady's stats and accolades would put him as a all time great, while I don't think that that is the right way to do things, it's how it is done and that's how you get into the hof. Wilson does seem to be on a great hof path, he has one a super bowl. Lost a Super Bowl, and lost a conference title game all in his first 4 years, not sure what he did in his first year. But Wilson is in the same situation that Brady was in early in his career he is surrounded by a great team so that is mighty hypocritical of you to not see somthing in one but not the other.

As I think I've said this before, I'm not a Brady fan, I find it weird that I'm arguing pro Brady right now, but I just think he deserves a little respect.

Sorry that he slept with your wife and had an affair with your mother but for heavens sake give him some credit.

I haven't read through this entire thread, but want to point out that for much of Brady's career he's had weak receivers, and/or no running game to work with.

The first year that he had an elite receiver, Moss, the team went 18-1 and Brady threw for 50 TD's, and NE rung up 40+ points regularly. Outside of Moss and Welker, can anyone remember any of the no names that he had to throw to prior to Gronkowski and Edelman?

Look at the list of New England's top receivers over the years, no names like Deion Branch, David Givens, Troy Brown. Brady's 2006 season he took the Pats to the AFC finals with Reche Caldwell and Jabarr Freakin Gaffney as his top-2 receivers. No running game, with Corey Dillon carrying 10-12 times a game, and Laurence Maroney. Brady singlehandedly won at San Diego and was up 21-3 on Indy... in fact, Caldwell dropped what would've been a AFC clinching first down after it hit him square in the chest. This drop ultimately ledcto Manning's only Super Bowl win.

Imagine if Brady had Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne for a decade plus? Or a year or two of Demaryius Thomas? Or if he played in a dome, or anywhere that didn't have 30 degree temps by Thanksgiving?

Or any competent big name running back outside of a couple years of Corey Dillon? For years his rushers were Laurence Maroney and BenJarvis Green-Ellis. LeGarrette Blount. Brady won a Super Bowl in 2014 and his top rusher for the season was... guess who?. Can anyone name the leading rusher for New England for the season in their 2001 and 2003 Super Bowl title years... the same rusher each of those 2 years. without looking it up. Of the 49 Super Bowl winning teams, the top rusher in 2001 and 2003, and then in 2014, have to be the worst on the list of 49.

I mean c'mon. What quarterback has done more with nothing than Brady? Historically, probably Marino, who never had a running game. And Elway pre-Terrell Davis, who only had like Sammy Winder. Montana... the guy could hand to Roger Craig, or toss a 5 yard slant route to Rice or Taylor and the guy would run 80 yards. Ok, Montana in 81 had a pretty weak roster i will admit, top rusher mightve been Lenville Elliott... yikes.

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/26/2016 8:45:00 PM (view original):
i was asking about a specific season... i wish i knew which one it was, where brady had a total garbage set of receivers, easily among the worst in the NFL, and he still did really well. none of that addresses that at all.

and seriously man... carson palmer? carson palmer is a better QB than brady? you can't compare a perennial loser like carson to brady. carson has a good arm, and i rooted for him for years on the bengals, but he has zero of that winner mentality, that tenacity and toughness that, well, makes winners winners. no comparison there. there's more to a QB than his arm, you can't just choose which attributes of a QB you care about, its about the package. i think its a VERY reasonable position to say brady is not the best of his era. i don't think you can reasonably say hes below carson palmer. your hatred blinds you.

For many years Brady had a bunch of nobodies to throw to and to run with, but 2006 was the year he had nobody that could catch, and nobody that could run.

Ok, following up...

I just had the misfortune of reading through some random pages on this thread. The main Brady hater lost his marbles by Page 7. Carson Palmer? Trent Dilfer? For old timers like me, that's the equivalent of saying that Joe Pisarcik or Norris Weese was more valuable than Plunkett or Bradshaw. Amirite or amirite?

there is an old thread in the football forums where he did the same thing....to the point that mere Brady haters were finding themselves defending Brady against his rants

I don't like Brady, never liked Brady, never rooted for New England, will never root for New England. But I am not going to read stuff where people compare him to Dilfer or Palmer and think these people are going logically about his achievements. You can compare him to Manning. I have sticked with the story that Manning was a better QB overall until the last SB won by Brady. Now, if Manning wins the next one, if he has a good performance, I am willing to check out the stats again.

There are two things to consider.

1) Stats
2) Overall success

I saw a lot of arguments on the teams surrounding both QB. In a 10 years span, both teams, New England and Indianapolis (Denver) had a lot of players change. So I am going to say, in the end, it evens out. Manning choked or the coach choked when Baltimore upset Denver and went out to win the SB. New England got a SB stolen from them on the Eli to helmet catch (still unbelievable to me). But they got back that SB on the bad coaching against Seattle last season. So if everything works the way it should, Manning should get his second SB in a week.

When you talk about teams surrounding a QB, I can't say I saw a better offense than the one Montana had in SF. Jerry Rice... Best WR of all time. And he had Taylor, I think.

Posted by MonsterTurtl on 1/30/2016 9:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/30/2016 5:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by The Taint on 1/30/2016 3:45:00 PM (view original):
Uhhh, you should probably check into Wilson's stretch of games this year without Lynch.  Historic numbers were put up.

In four NFL seasons, Wilson is averaging over 600 rushing yards per season. Funny, Brady doesn't do that.

He also has completed over 64 percent of his passes, while a higher percentage of his completions go for 20+ and 40+ yards than what Brady does.

Despite throwing more downfield balls, Wilson has a very low interception percentage, similar to what Brady does with shorter throws that are less likely to be intercepted.

The guy's QB rating is over 101 for his career, and 2014 was the only of his four seasons when he was under a 100 QB rating (it was still a respectable 95). Brady's career average is 96.4, and other than 2014, Wilson has had a higher rating in every year than Brady.

Brady throws for more yardage, but he also attempts about 8-10 more passes per game than Wilson.

Given the above along with Wilson's rushing yardage, scrambling ability, athleticism, elusiveness, and ability to throw while on the run, he has been a far superior QB to Brady the past four seasons, which are all we have to directly compare.

If Wilson can keep up what he's been doing for several more seasons, there is no reason to think he can't be one of, if not the very best, QB in the NFL.

Wilson is a different type of QB, that doesn't mean he's better. He is a dual threat, Brady is a pocket passer, there is something to be said for both. The majority of QBs in the NFL are pocket passers, and as I said earlier all of the best QBs are besides Big Ben, and even he isn't really dual threat. So to say Wilson is better than Brady because he can run, make athletic plays, scramble, you would also have to say he is better than everyone else because they can't do any of that either. Wilson is not as intelligent of a passer as Brady, as I have explained, he plays in a run oriented offense, he throws to his best two recievers (This year Graham, and Baldwin) the large majority of the time, and he plays against defenses that stack the box so he gets 1 on 1 coverage for his two best receivers. It's kind of hard to argue that he is as good as Brady when he throws way less passes, as you said 8-10, which makes a huge difference, it means the defense is thinking about stopping the run, there are less chances for interceptions, and there are less chances for incompletions to ruin his good QBR that you brought up, he is not relied upon to carry an offense, he probably will later in his career but not yet. Brady is relied upon to carry an offense, their run game is vertically non existent this season, don't argue with me on that I had Blount on my fantasy team. Wilson to going to be top 3 of his era I think, along with Luck, and either Newton, Tannihill, Cousins, Carr, or like Boartles or something. But he isn't in the top group just yet, for a lot of the reasons you say Brady is bad, he was carried by a STELLER defense, a great O-line, and a great running back to his first Super Bowl win and his second appearance, he can't be considered along with those guys until he is carrying an offense.

Wilson is a different type of QB. I agree that doesn't make him better.

What makes him better is the fact that he has more difference making skills.

It's easy to argue he's as good as Brady, and better in fact. He throws fewer passes but is more productive with what he does throw. Then there's that little fact that he's far more skilled.

Posted by npb7768 on 1/31/2016 5:21:00 AM (view original):
I haven't read through this entire thread, but want to point out that for much of Brady's career he's had weak receivers, and/or no running game to work with.

The first year that he had an elite receiver, Moss, the team went 18-1 and Brady threw for 50 TD's, and NE rung up 40+ points regularly. Outside of Moss and Welker, can anyone remember any of the no names that he had to throw to prior to Gronkowski and Edelman?

Look at the list of New England's top receivers over the years, no names like Deion Branch, David Givens, Troy Brown. Brady's 2006 season he took the Pats to the AFC finals with Reche Caldwell and Jabarr Freakin Gaffney as his top-2 receivers. No running game, with Corey Dillon carrying 10-12 times a game, and Laurence Maroney. Brady singlehandedly won at San Diego and was up 21-3 on Indy... in fact, Caldwell dropped what would've been a AFC clinching first down after it hit him square in the chest. This drop ultimately ledcto Manning's only Super Bowl win.

Imagine if Brady had Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne for a decade plus? Or a year or two of Demaryius Thomas? Or if he played in a dome, or anywhere that didn't have 30 degree temps by Thanksgiving?

Or any competent big name running back outside of a couple years of Corey Dillon? For years his rushers were Laurence Maroney and BenJarvis Green-Ellis. LeGarrette Blount. Brady won a Super Bowl in 2014 and his top rusher for the season was... guess who?. Can anyone name the leading rusher for New England for the season in their 2001 and 2003 Super Bowl title years... the same rusher each of those 2 years. without looking it up. Of the 49 Super Bowl winning teams, the top rusher in 2001 and 2003, and then in 2014, have to be the worst on the list of 49.

I mean c'mon. What quarterback has done more with nothing than Brady? Historically, probably Marino, who never had a running game. And Elway pre-Terrell Davis, who only had like Sammy Winder. Montana... the guy could hand to Roger Craig, or toss a 5 yard slant route to Rice or Taylor and the guy would run 80 yards. Ok, Montana in 81 had a pretty weak roster i will admit, top rusher mightve been Lenville Elliott... yikes.

I already debunked the ideas Brady had bad receivers and no running game.

Moss made Brady look great. Moss was the MVP that year, but the award went to Brady in more ridiculous over rating of a guy who wouldn't have sniffed those numbers without Moss. Face it, even when the ball didn't go to Moss, he opened up the field by just being there.

I listed many of the receivers he had to throw to, and they were not "no names". Most of them were the exact prototype for the system NE runs. There is ZERO reason to think they were bad receivers.

You list it all yourself and discount it so you can over rate Brady.

The guys you list were absolutely prototypes for catch short passes and run after the catch to get yards, NOT "no names".  You even mention the great running backs he had to work with, then discount it out of hand because you over rate Brady.

Manning helped make Harrison, Wayne (and a whole lot of other guys) look as good as they did. They didn't just get all those catches on their own without a great QB throwing to them. Brady doesn't have Manning's IQ or work ethic, nor his accuracy or determination.

The fact is Brady has NEVER had "nothing" to work with. He's ALWAYS had great coaching, ALWAYS  played in the same system designed to make up for his lack of actual difference making skills, and has ALWAYS played on talented teams which would have won without him (and did in 2008).

Posted by npb7768 on 1/31/2016 5:18:00 AM (view original):
Ok, following up...

I just had the misfortune of reading through some random pages on this thread. The main Brady hater lost his marbles by Page 7. Carson Palmer? Trent Dilfer? For old timers like me, that's the equivalent of saying that Joe Pisarcik or Norris Weese was more valuable than Plunkett or Bradshaw. Amirite or amirite?

I've provided a great argument for everything I've said, and your only counter is to attack me personally and say I've "lost my marbles"?

In other words, you've got no counter argument.

Posted by edsortails on 1/31/2016 6:56:00 AM (view original):
there is an old thread in the football forums where he did the same thing....to the point that mere Brady haters were finding themselves defending Brady against his rants

I've presented great arguments that Brady is over rated and not nearly as good as many people believe, and not one person has yet to come up with any kind of effective counter argument.

The stats don't lie. The facts don't either.

FACT: Brady has always had great coaching.

FACT: Brady has had good O-lines to play behind, and often great ones.

FACT: Brady throws shorter passes than other QBs, but is less accurate than others in the same era (see post earlier in this thread).

FACT: Brady has often played on teams which featured some of the top defenses in the NFL those years.

FACT: Brady has always played with receivers who were well-suited to the NE system of short passes and running after the catch.

FACT: Twice Brady has played with the best player in the NFL at their position catching his passes for multiple seasons (Randy Moss and Rob Gronkowski).

FACT: Brady caves under pressure from a pass rush, and is not listed as being in the top half of QBs when facing pressure (See earlier in the thread.)

FACT: When the Patriots lose in playoff games, it is typically Brady's fault, but it gets glossed over. (Last SB loss, he missed Welker on a throw that would have set up the win. Just last week had multiple interceptions and almost got bailed out by Gronkowski but still lost.)

FACT: When the Patriots win in playoff games, Brady gets all the credit even when he has little to do with it. (Last SB win, he's on the sidelines when the opposing coach makes a bad play call and a defender gambles and gets lucky.)

FACT: Brady has no difference making skills to speak of. No rocket arm, very little elusiveness, he can't shake tacklers well, can't throw downfield well, isn't fast or athletic and can't throw well on the run.