WhatIfSports Discussion Forum: D3 Gameplanning & Recruiting

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College Basketball World: Tarkanian

Topic: D3 Gameplanning & Recruiting

5/02/2007 at 10:31 am

oldresorter

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 2544

I only have 2 d3 teams left in my accounts - but I have built probably close to two dozen d2/d3 dynasties on my way up, so I know what new coaches are going thru - all vet coaches have been there.

I thought I would pass on a few gameplanning / recruiting things - in terms of recruiting / dynasty building - here is a list of topics off of my head. I will offer some info on some of these over the next few days.

Also, I recommend reading this thread to see another coach's opinion on a wide range of issues, including recruiting:

http://whatifsports.com/forums/threads.asp?ForumID=30&TopicID=82001&PagePosition=1

others, PLEASE pipe in, I would prefer we keep this topic limited to d3 strategies.

RECRUITING

* - money / cycle management

* - starts / minutes management

* - redshirting management

* - player selection - rating

* - player selection - other factors

* - ideal class size

* - competitive recruiting - fight or flight

GAMEPLANNING

* - depth chart

* - practice plan

* - team plan

* - player plan

5/02/2007 at 10:31 am

oldresorter

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 2544

COMPETITIVE RECRUITING - FIGHT OR FLIGHT

Probably the single advice I have given most often is "recruiting is like going to the fair as a kid, don't spend all your money early, and don't get in any fights you can't win"

I generally avoid fighting over a d3 recruit. If I do, I commit to the recruit, with all the weapons at my disposal, playing time, minutes, starts, money, (no boster stuff though).

I would recommend that novice coaches avoid battling another coach for recruits, but if need be, never battle for a player who is farther than 100 miles or so away (you can go a little higher, but 170 or 180 starts costing quite a bit more $) .

Also, look at the coach, if he has been there a while and has won, you might want to avoid the battle, I know I look and try to avoid vet coaches.

5/02/2007 at 10:31 am

oldresorter

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 2544

PLAYER SELECTION - RATING

There are a near infinite number of issues and tricks....& remember, this is written more for the novice than the expert. Here are a couple to start you off with. You need to develop more and more tricks on your own each season you recruit!

#1 - Go after only 2 types of players (guards and posts). Do not recruit SF's, they are hard to pick & hard to get if worth picking. When developing dynasties, I often used the SF as a place to give my promised frosh "start" away, either a post or a guard. Most my early West Conn teams had a frosh guard or post at SF.

#2 - Go after the base skills for each type - post (RB/LP) and guard (PER/BH/PA)

#3 - Subtract DU from the player total, then evaluate the player. There is no real difference between a 401/ 1 DU player and a 461/61 DU, unless they get hurt, which is pretty unlikely.

#4 - consider all other skills a luxary, get all you can, but insist on the "basics" first - although if I had to pick 2 more skills to go after, it would be ATH / SP.

I think the number one fault I see in rookie coaches in this area of discussion is the recruitment of SF's....

5/02/2007 at 10:31 am

oldresorter

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 2544

MONEY MANAGEMENT

In player selection, going after SF's is a fault for sure, but without a doubt, money management is the biggest problem new coaches have!

#1 - If I were the AD of Rookie Coach State, I would only give my coach 25% of his budget to spend the first night. I would give him 25% more a few cycles prior to signings, 25% more a few cycles after signing, and the final 25% either the last or second last day, depending on how well he was doing (I'd hold the $ longer if he was doing poorly)

If a school has 4 open scholies, that would be given out in 3k chunks.

#2 - I think all coaches benefit from giving out 10-20 phone calls immediately to viable candidate's coaches (380-420 rated players at rookie u) - NOT TO THE PLAYER to the coaches. Coach calls often yield the type of offense and defense, sometimes even hints about player character! (The "ride the bus" kids usually will take a redshirt later on)

#3 - If you limit yourself to local players and home visits, the first 3k (or 25%) can go a pretty long way,

#4 - the second 3k (or 25%) can be used to cinch a player or two, or held for later, or to start pursuing a drop down* or two

*(Drop downs are unrecruited d2 players, they start showing up on day 2 (for me) and continue to show up a couple at a time throughout recruiting, and are generally better players than are found on the initial board.)

#5 - the 3rd 3k (or 25%) will hopefully net a player you've had your eye on who is ok, or a drop down who is even better,

#6 - the final 3k (or 25%) to fill out your roster, either with one better player if things went well or 2 or 3 lesser players if things went poorly.

5/02/2007 at 10:31 am

oldresorter

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 2544

REDSHIRTING

#1 - you have to answer a ? b4 you can decide to redshirt at all, ? is "How long do you plan on staying" - as long as the answer is less than 4 years (i.e. you are trying to move up in the game), there is little need for an entry level d3 coach to redshirt.

#2 - redshirting is one of the best ways to build a d3 long term dynasty, if the answer to the question is "for a long time"

#3 -If you decide you want to redshirt, I would not recommend using the redshirt button when recruiting, consider it an advanced option AT BEST. More than likely, you will get a response "you crazy", & you will have flushed your money down the drain. Try to find a "ride the bus" or "give the $20 bill back" type player, bring him in, and take your chances!

#4 - once a player is on your roster, you can offer him a redishirt and pull it back - with no penalty to your team, or the player, many coaches try a player multiple times - just beware because the redshirt and rescind buttons are very close, make sure you hit the right one!

5/02/2007 at 10:31 am

oldresorter

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 2544

STARTS / MINUTES

Bottom line, a coach can almost double one's effective budget, by using starts and minutes as recruiting tools - BUT.......... Do not promise starts or minutes if you do not plan on honoring those promises*.

This is a total guess, but I consider a start with about 1-2k in dollars when going after a recruit.

I also consider 15 minutes to be worth about half that, $500 - $1000. I don't know how much 20,25,or 30 minutes adds, but I try to avoid giving too much more than 15 minutes, since frosh generally really hurt a teams performance.

With only 3k to spend per recruit, at d3, offering a starts and minutes to key recruits, can double the amount of $ available to go after recruits.

*I recommend you to honor promises 100%.

5/02/2007 at 10:31 am

oldresorter

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 2544

IDEAL CLASS SIZE

In my dynasty attempts, I try to get my classes somewhat spread out, & it kind of naturally happens over time. I really don't shoot for any one distribution like, 1-5-1-5 or anthing. I do this largely because it is fun to recruit each season, and in dynasty teams, I can win with 2 or 3 seniors and 2 or 3 juniors leading the team.

In my attempts at getting promoted (not worrying about the long term), I really take whatever is there, and work with it.

There used to be a 'Super Class' strategy that allowed coaches to get abnormally good teams with all (mostly all) players in one class, as of July 2008 - I think that has pretty much gone away.

5/02/2007 at 10:31 am

oldresorter

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 2544

PLAYER SELECTION - OTHER FACTORS

- vs time in the cycle - this is similiar to the money issue, but there may be a "best" time to go after a lower ranked player (maybe early and late), a best time to go after a higher ranked player (in the middle) - also, you might want to vary how you approach things, one season go after a great player early for example

- miles - I like starting off close to home, and ventruing farther away as recruiting progresses. Some programs (even some years) have lots of good recruits close, some not too many, so you must play it a little by ear.

- other factors - ft%, gpa, and coaches / eval info can make a bad player look good, or a good player look great to me ... those are some of the best guys to recruit.

- juco's / transfer - I tend to recruit a juco / transfer if I feel I am one player away from a good team, or if I just don't have a choice, or if the player is so good I would be a fool to pass on him, but I largely avoid it. Good thing about transfers, you can see what offense and defense IQ grade they have!

5/02/2007 at 10:31 am

oldresorter

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 2544

DEPTH CHART

Steps 1-3 represent what I would call the base set, from that base, the 4th step is to change based on what happens.

Step 1 - check the fatigue box (You have a choice of fatigue or minutes, pick fatigue)

History lesson: The game used to be only minutes, fatigue was added, many vet players feel fatigue makes your team play better.

Step 2 - play a ten man rotation, 2 unique players deep at each position.

Step 3 - set each individual player to fairly fresh.

Tip: Using fairly fresh will cause minutes to be given out proportional to the ST (stamina) of the player. The starter will get more minutes than the reserve. So if you want a reserve to play more minutes, have him backup a lower stamina player than he is and / or set the reserve to getting tired or tired.

Step 4 - troubleshoot and change from this base set up, asking others questions, observing what is happenning, etc.

5/02/2007 at 10:32 am

oldresorter

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 2544

PRACTICE PLAN

This area has an infinite number of variations and issues, here are some basics.

Use only one offense and one defense, use the one your team knows the best.

You have 130 minutes of practice time, allocate 20 each to offense and defense, leaving you with 90 minutes.

Give each player 12 minutes of free throw time, leaving you with 78 minutes.

Study hall has seemingly changed since I last documented a method. For simplicity, give each frosh 15, if they were a great hs student (3.5 GPA or better, consider only 5 minutes, 3.0 GPA or better 10minutes))

I would give about half that for soph's and above, based on their college GPA.

You will now have 65-70 minutes remaining for 7 skills you can practice. Here are some tips how to divide it up.

Ignore practice minutes to any skill less than 30, unless it is a primary skill (bh for a guard or rb for a center) - this is especially true for DEF

Try to get each primary skill (bh/pa/per for guards, rb/lp for big men) at least 10 minutes.

I give most guards zero lp/rb and most big men zero bh/per.

Skill improvement tends to max out at 24, probably not wise to go much over 20 unitl you become more proficient at this.

SKills tend to get worse if they do not get at least 7 minutes (might be 6, I use 7 however).

Try to give what you can to conditioning - a minimum of 14, I usually do conditioning last, and change other things based on what conditioning turns out.

Hope this helps, good luck.

5/02/2007 at 10:32 am

oldresorter

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 2544

TEAM PLAN

Sim's play normal pace and zero level. I would recommend you do the same, then adjust as you get experience. You have an option to adjust at half time your defense, for starters, why not do it anytime - although vet players may not.

A typical adjustment, change your defense to -1 or -2 to improve your interior defense or your rebounding.

There is quite a bit of controversy even among the best players about how to set the pace and defense levels. It is great fun to experiment, and see what works best for you.

The settings for late game are somewhat intuitive, I intentional foul at 1 minute down by 5. I also up the pace if down by 10 at 4-6 minutes, slow it down if ahead by 10 at 4-6. I shoot fewer 3's if ahead, more if behind. I pack it in if ahead, spread the defense outward if behind. As I said, I do these somewhat intuitively.

5/02/2007 at 10:32 am

oldresorter

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 2544

PLAYER PLAN

Steps 1 - 3 would be a simple base set up to start from, there is a near infinite number of refinements you can go to from there.

Step 1 - Player shot selection: Set each guard and small SF to 0 shot selection. Set each big SF and post player to -2. Hit save all to have this set up vs each defense.

Step 2 - Player distribution: Set best 2 to 4 players to 12%, next best couple players to 8%, final group of players to 4% - set walkons and players you won't use to 0%. Again hit save all.

Step 3 - Opponent double team: do not use until you get a better handle on the game.

Step 4 - Adjust and iterate based on how the season goes, what you can learn, etc.

5/02/2007 at 11:40 am

osuhunter

All*Star

Forum Posts: 1027

Two things that I have finally learned are CONSERVE YOUR MONEY and PATIENCE.

Wonder who taught me that?..

Most people dont buy the first car they see, they kick the tires.

It is especiallt true in recruiting dont get in a recruiting battle for a 395 player.

Wait til after signing period for better players to become avaiable

Have come a long way from spending over 5,000 for Steve Timmmons who by his senior year was backing up a soph PG guard because he had 35 speed, and the soph has 68 speed.

Great idea and thread as always

5/02/2007 at 10:52 pm

icouldblion

Pro

Forum Posts: 61

Quote: Originally Posted By oldresorter on 5/02/2007

PLAYER SELECTION - RATING

There are a near infinite number of issues and tricks....& remember, this is written more for the novice than the expert. Here are a couple to start you off with. You need to develop more and more tricks on your own each season you recruit!

#1 - Go after only 2 types of players (guards and posts). Do not recruit SF's, they are hard to pick & hard to get if worth picking. When developing dynasties, I often used the SF as a place to give my promised frosh "start" away, either a post or a guard. Most my early West Conn teams had a frosh guard or post at SF.

#2 - Go after the base skills for each type - post (RB/LP) and guard (PER/BH/PA)

#3 - Subtract DU from the player total, then evaluate the player. There is no real difference between a 401/ 1 DU player and a 461/61 DU, unless they get hurt, which is pretty unlikely.

#4 - consider all other skills a luxary, get all you can, but insist on the "basics" first.

I think the number one fault I see in rookie coaches in this area of discussion is the recruitment of SF's....

I would like to throw into this discussion, when in doubt, go with the highest WE player available. If you can find a player with average skills and a 80 WE, versus a player with very good skills and a 30 WE, take the guy with the 80 WE. In the long run, that player will be better in their Jr & Sr seasons.

5/04/2007 at 11:04 am

oldresorter

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 2544

I am finished with the recruiting information for now, I will occasionally update it, hope it helps someone!

5/06/2007 at 9:33 pm

cjl9652

Veteran

Forum Posts: 152

To add to the wisdom displayed here by oldresorter (which is something like giving a Micaelangelo a touch up):

ATH and SPE seem to be the stats that make a good player great, and a great player unbelievable. Personally, I will not recruit ANY player that does not have easily improvble stats in these areas (25+).

Stamina is like durability. When evaluating players, I also subtract stamina from their totals. Considering the premium I put on SPE and ATH, I will undoubtedly put a lot of practice minutes into Conditioning, which will improve stamina and durability anyway. I will take lower core stats if I can get better SPE and ATH. These stats improve slower than core stats -- saves lots of development time if you can get them high to start.

Get guys that know either your offense or defense already (preferably both). Their IQ will be a year ahead than if they did not know that offense or defense at all.

Guys that can hit FTs already are nice. High school FT shooting % is often an overlooked factor. Considering how important a good FT shooting team is (critical!), you can save yourself a lot of practice time if you pay attention to this as well.

As far as base skills for post players go, I think that Rebounding is considerably more important than LP. Better rebounding = more possessions and more possessions = goodness.

For the SF position, I also like a good rebounder. I tend to look for balanced LP/PER skills, but REB is still the most important factor in my book for the entire frontcourt.

As far as WE goes, I will second icouldbelion's opinion on the value of WE. If you are trying to build a dynasty, WE will really come into play -- particular for that freshman that you redshirt and then start for four years.

Thanks much oldresorter for all of your contributions to the game. I read many of your posts (as well as a few others) when I was a newbie and it made the game much more enjoyable. Good job.

5/08/2007 at 1:11 pm

oldresorter

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 2544

Thx very much for the input, hope to see more coaches chime in with a few tips and secrets. Largely speaking, I agree with everything you said, but I'd like to expand on a few things if you don't mind - OR

Quote: Originally Posted By cjl9652 on 5/06/2007

To add to the wisdom displayed here by oldresorter (which is something like giving a Micaelangelo a touch up):

ATH and SPE seem to be the stats that make a good player great, and a great player unbelievable. Personally, I will not recruit ANY player that does not have easily improvble stats in these areas (25+). YEP, abosolutely, just beware that new coaches can get carried away with this concept, and end up with a 5 PA PG, still must go after the basics first!

Stamina is like durability. When evaluating players, I also subtract stamina from their totals. Considering the premium I put on SPE and ATH, I will undoubtedly put a lot of practice minutes into Conditioning, which will improve stamina and durability anyway. I will take lower core stats if I can get better SPE and ATH. These stats improve slower than core stats -- saves lots of development time if you can get them high to start. Both my son and I used to think this was a fact, truth is a 80 stamina player will wipe the floor with a 60 stamina player, under 2 conditions, 1-all else is equal, 2-minutes played are 15-25

Get guys that know either your offense or defense already (preferably both). Their IQ will be a year ahead than if they did not know that offense or defense at all.   10-15 games ahead, not a year, IMO.

Guys that can hit FTs already are nice. High school FT shooting % is often an overlooked factor. Considering how important a good FT shooting team is (critical!), you can save yourself a lot of practice time if you pay attention to this as well. YEP

As far as base skills for post players go, I think that Rebounding is considerably more important than LP.   Better rebounding = more possessions and more possessions = goodness. YEP - only caveat is if you have a dynasty, you might want to make sure at least one or two of the post players are real good LP players, but you want them all to be able to RB!

For the SF position, I also like a good rebounder. I tend to look for balanced LP/PER skills, but REB is still the most important factor in my book for the entire frontcourt.   YEP

As far as WE goes, I will second icouldbelion's opinion on the value of WE. If you are trying to build a dynasty, WE will really come into play -- particular for that freshman that you redshirt and then start for four years.   - YEP

Thanks much oldresorter for all of your contributions to the game. I read many of your posts (as well as a few others) when I was a newbie and it made the game much more enjoyable. Good job. - THX

please remember, lots of this is guesswork, and personnal comfort, but there still is lots that many vet coaches have in common!!!!!!!!!!!!

5/09/2007 at 2:11 am

asher413

All*Star

Forum Posts: 1146

A couple of helpers from me- (no expert)

1- all catergories under 20 won't go up (or enough to plan on). Remember that. Sometimes a guy with 22-25's in a lot of other catergories and a lower 'core' number (by about 10) will be a better long term player.

2. I only do SF's as Jucos or transfers. I find a jr. or sr. SF that comes in can contribute, usually as the starter or 1st SF off the bench. Underclassmen- too many catergories of practice unless they're special.

3. Know your system, team and needs. With a M2M defense, NEVER recruit someone with a D below 20, and look hard at below 30 at DIII. If you run a break or press, even a C with 1 ATH and SPD isn't a good option. Look two years down the road- what holes will I have? Recruit to fill those holes, not immediate 3rd stringers. Know your team- recruit guys that will give other coaches headaches- if you have a Soph at a position, try and find a backup that is opposite him to make his Sr year (recruits Jr) one where you can use different looks, and keep them on their heels.

4. DROP DOWNS, DROP DOWNS, DROP DOWNS. Understand that better players WILL drop from DII. These may not be ones you have targeted. Because of this, I suggest waiting until late on Day 2, if possible, to recruit. This keeps you from getting into battles (especially ones you can't win), gives you a small picture on drop downs, and allows you to not waste as much cash feeling out players that get snagged by great DIII or DII programs.

5. No question is a stupid question. There is a lot of help (most if it better than mine) in these forums. Use it. Ask in a thread. Sitemail one of those hall-of-famers. Trust me, a little advice from just one great coach will take your game up two notches.

5/09/2007 at 1:50 pm

lostmyth2

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 734

Quote: Originally posted by oldresorter on 5/02/2007
<DIV class=text>There is a coach, Lostmyth I think, who has become kind of an expert at this.

Not sure I would consider myself an "expert" at that. I only had two teams in which I had super-classes.

5/09/2007 at 2:35 pm

oldresorter

Hall of Famer

Forum Posts: 2544

Quote: Originally Posted By lostmyth2 on 5/09/2007

Quote: Originally posted by oldresorter on 5/02/2007
<DIV class=text>There is a coach, Lostmyth I think, who has become kind of an expert at this.

Not sure I would consider myself an "expert" at that. I only had two teams in which I had super-classes.

sorry if I offended you, meant it strictly as a compliment, I have lots of teams with 6 or 7 including Cal in Tark, which is a borderline "super sized class", I think it is a very strong strategy in this game - but I can edit you out if you prefer!

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