2015 baseball HOF ballot. Topic

seamar_116
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<<My argument is that with the game on the line, I'd rather have my "HOF caliber" hitter actually trying to hit the ball rather than patiently working out a walk and hoping the lesser quality guy behind him gets the job done.>>

And what evidence has been presented that this was Edgar's approach?...And tec...I am not saying that you are saying that it was.

What I like about Mike is that he is an argument shapeshifter...if he has no traction with one line of thinking he moves on to another. 

Mike...what do the following players all have in common: Willie Stargell, Ron Santo, Orlando Cepeda, Joe Medwick, Edd Roush, Bill Terry, Buck Ewing, Joe Sewell, Deacon White, Billy Herman, Chuck Klein, Arky Vaughn, Yogi Berra, Jim Bottomley, Pie Traynor, Earle Combs, Lloyd Waner, Bobby Doerr, Johnny Bench, Kirby Puckett, Hank Greenberg, John McGraw, Bobby Wallace, Mickey Cochrane, Gary Carter, Jimmy Collins, Dave Bancroft, Tommy McCarthy, Joe Torre, Hughie Jennings, Tony Lazzeri, Ralph Kiner, Larry Doby?

None of them scored as many runs in a major league game as Edgar Martinez.  And they are all in the HOF. Your current argument is stupid.

Quiz...who was less likely to make an out

A. Edgar Martinez
B. Stan Musial
C. Ricky Henderson
D. Wade Boggs

2/8/2014 11:39 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/8/2014 6:55:00 PM (view original):
Hall of
Edgar, Mantle...who else is this is club?
2/8/2014 11:42 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/8/2014 9:58:00 PM (view original):
I'm not arguing Mike's argument.

My argument is that with the game on the line, I'd rather have my "HOF caliber" hitter actually trying to hit the ball rather than patiently working out a walk and hoping the lesser quality guy behind him gets the job done.
Like Mantle. Be a hitter. What a ****. Rooting for some schmuck to get a hit behind him.
2/8/2014 11:43 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by bad_luck on 2/8/2014 9:47:00 PM (view original):
That's not mikes argument. He's saying Martinez didn't score often enough once he was on base.
If the hitter's behind him aren't driving him in, there's a pretty good chance they're not driving in someone else either.

So, if there's a runner on base, swing the bat Edgar.   

Is it your contention that all of EM's 1200+ walks were with the bases empty?
2/9/2014 7:52 AM
tecwrg
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Posted by burnsy483 on 2/8/2014 11:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 2/8/2014 9:58:00 PM (view original):
I'm not arguing Mike's argument.

My argument is that with the game on the line, I'd rather have my "HOF caliber" hitter actually trying to hit the ball rather than patiently working out a walk and hoping the lesser quality guy behind him gets the job done.
Like Mantle. Be a hitter. What a ****. Rooting for some schmuck to get a hit behind him.
This discussion is about EM, not MM.  Try to keep up.
2/9/2014 8:00 AM
MikeT23
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Seattle baseball:   "Yay, I didn't make an out!!!"
2/9/2014 8:06 AM
The Taint
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/8/2014 6:49:00 PM (view original):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWYQwDgICug
2/9/2014 8:12 AM
The Taint
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Just when you think you've read arguments so dumb, they could never be topped, this thread takes an unexpected turn.
2/9/2014 8:15 AM
MikeT23
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The problem we have here is that some of us don't think baseball is played on a stat sheet.    You can't break these out and determine a winner:




Everyone knows a walk is better than an out.  My contention is that you should want the better hitter swinging the bat rather than passing on the possibility of producing a run to a lesser hitter.  I've suggested that Seattle might have been better served if EM was a tad bit less selective at the plate.   Would his rate stats been lower?   Probably.    Would Seattle have scored more runs if he was swinging rather than walking so the immortals such as Jay Buhner and Dan Wilson could get some hacks?  I think so.   I've already shown that they were poor at driving in EM.  I can't imagine they just didn't get hits because he was on base. 

FWIW, I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be in the HOF because he walked a lot.   I don't think what he excelled at was enough to make up for what he didn't do.
2/9/2014 8:26 AM
seamar_116
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And you would have this same conversation with Ted Williams? Because he would disagree with you 100%. You are entitled to your opinion. Arguably the greatest hitter of all time would disagree with you.

Okay...so the assumption is that at least one runner is on base. Edgar walking puts at least two on. And you don't think the pitcher is going to have to give something better to hit to whoever is up next?  So tell us Mike, how much do you expand your strike zone? And with what result? Furthermore, you have not provided any evidence that Edgar was taking hittable pitches. This would indicate that pitchers were in fact fearful of an Edgar at bat and did not give him as many good pitches to hit. He is one of a handful of 300/400/500 career hitters...it's a pretty elite group.

2/9/2014 8:37 AM
seamar_116
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Taint....I think Edgar had another clutch hit the following game.       But yeah, Mike's totally hypothetical and unsubstantiated argument has totally changed my mind about Edgar and the HOF.....oh wait...no it hasn't. 

Mike...how about A-Rod...HOF worthy?

2/9/2014 8:44 AM
MikeT23
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Ted Williams is dead.   We're talking about Edgar Martinez.    Anyway, to answer your question, EM was driven in at an alarmingly low rate by the guys behind him.  I don't think they were any better at driving in players not named Edgar Martinez.    So, if I have a runner on base, I'd rather EM swing the bat instead of greats like Jay Buhner, Dan Wilson, Alvin Davis or Russ Davis. 

I don't know if he had to expand his strike zone.   Maybe he just doesn't take strikes. 

A-Rod was an elite SS putting up elite hitter numbers.   What do you think?
2/9/2014 9:26 AM
bad_luck
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How do you know Marrtinez didn't swing the bat with runners on base? He hit over .300 and slugged over .500, it seems like he had no problem delivering with the bat.
2/9/2014 11:29 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/9/2014 7:52:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/8/2014 9:47:00 PM (view original):
That's not mikes argument. He's saying Martinez didn't score often enough once he was on base.
If the hitter's behind him aren't driving him in, there's a pretty good chance they're not driving in someone else either.

So, if there's a runner on base, swing the bat Edgar.   

Is it your contention that all of EM's 1200+ walks were with the bases empty?
Last sentence.
2/9/2014 11:52 AM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 2/9/2014 11:29:00 AM (view original):
How do you know Marrtinez didn't swing the bat with runners on base? He hit over .300 and slugged over .500, it seems like he had no problem delivering with the bat.

It's been my observation that players who tend to draw a lot of walks do so by working the count, by sometimes taking hittable pitches in the strike zone for called strikes.

If the game is on the line, with runners on base, I don't want my "HOF caliber" hitter taking strikes while trying to draw a walk.

2/9/2014 12:23 PM
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