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seamar_116
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Posted by stlnathan on 1/6/2015 5:43:00 PM (view original):
"I guess that is why Satchel Paige had such a great ML career ,,,"

    What the hell does that mean?
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Posted by stlnathan on 1/6/2015 4:18:00 PM (view original):
"The win stat is a horrible way to make an evaluation"

For some reason baseball people have looked at wins for a pitcher as important for over a hundred years. I wonder why that is. I guess they just didn't know any better.>>

It means that "because that's the way we've always done it" is a stupid reason to continue doing something. How about we argue that many of the players in the HOF prior to Jackie Robinson have inflated numbers because they were not playing against the best competition available.

re: win stat- is Felix Hernandez one of the best pitchers in baseball? Do his win totals over his career reflect that?
1/6/2015 5:49 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 1/6/2015 5:37:00 PM (view original):
In 1991 he was slightly below average over 75 IP of relief, after being very good in relief in 1990.

In 2005, he was a disaster as both a starter and a reliever. He was actually slightly better in 24 innings of relief than he was as a starter that year. But I think he was injured in 2005, so it's probably an injury driven outlier considering how well he pitched in 2004 and 2006.
A 1.559 WHIP (what he had in '91) is "slightly below average"?

Interesting analysis.
1/6/2015 5:50 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by stlnathan on 1/6/2015 5:42:00 PM (view original):
"Come on, tec jr. If you want to argue that it's a good stat, argue that it's a good stat. Don't just appeal to some vague "baseball people" authority."

    It means junior(and that isn't meant to be vague) that you arrogantly seem to believe that you know more than an awful lot of people that have gone before you. And from what I've observed here I would trust their judgement a helluva lot more than yours.
Super. Then why are you wasting your time here?

If you think a stat is useful, it should be pretty easy to lay out a logical case for it. Saying, "derrrr, other people use it," is stupid.
1/6/2015 5:51 PM
seamar_116
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tec...re: guys who cover baseball for a living...do you mean like the guys who gave HOF votes to Aaron Boone and Troy Percival or the 3% of voters who did not think that Randy Johnson was a HOF pitcher. Are those the guys whose judgement we are supposed to fawn over and say "well, they cover the game for a living, they obviously know better than anyone else."

FYI...there are more than a few voters who in fact, do not cover MLB for a living any more, but still have a vote.

1/6/2015 5:54 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 1/6/2015 5:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 1/6/2015 5:37:00 PM (view original):
In 1991 he was slightly below average over 75 IP of relief, after being very good in relief in 1990.

In 2005, he was a disaster as both a starter and a reliever. He was actually slightly better in 24 innings of relief than he was as a starter that year. But I think he was injured in 2005, so it's probably an injury driven outlier considering how well he pitched in 2004 and 2006.
A 1.559 WHIP (what he had in '91) is "slightly below average"?

Interesting analysis.
Tom Glavine's whip for his entire career was 1.314.

I tend not to lean too hard on whip because it's difficult to evaluate it in context, especially in a small 75 inning sample. Schilling's ERA+ that year was 92. So yeah, about 8% below average, or "slightly, in my book.
1/6/2015 5:54 PM
stlnathan
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As I said before:

Pitcher wins isn't a top measuring stick but it has its place. I've noticed that wins have a way of gathering together in a collection many individual barameters. Besides the obvious ones, such things as a pitchers hitting ability, fielding ability, and ability to get crucial outs when necessary. All the great pitchers have had an ability (especially before the time when 6 innings was all that was expected) to pace themselves until it was necessary to bear down down at pivotal times. A guy like Furguson Jenkins was a good example of this pitching in Wrigley Field. He gave  up a lot of home runs but they always seemed to be solo home runs. He was a winning pitcher.

I'm not saying wins is the most useful stat but I do object to someone saying it has no merit. Yes, Felix Hernandez would probably have a few more wins with a better team, but great pitchers manage to have winning records on bad teams. I could site many that have done it in baseball history. And throwing something out just because "it's the way it's always been done" is equally as ignorant. There may be a reason for it that you are overlooking.

And to bring up Satchell Paige and the pre-Robinson exclusion as relevant is rediculous. Besides that, by your argument should we also then consider all stats since 1971 was inflated because of the dilution of talent caused by expansion?


1/6/2015 6:24 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 1/6/2015 5:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 1/6/2015 5:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 1/6/2015 5:37:00 PM (view original):
In 1991 he was slightly below average over 75 IP of relief, after being very good in relief in 1990.

In 2005, he was a disaster as both a starter and a reliever. He was actually slightly better in 24 innings of relief than he was as a starter that year. But I think he was injured in 2005, so it's probably an injury driven outlier considering how well he pitched in 2004 and 2006.
A 1.559 WHIP (what he had in '91) is "slightly below average"?

Interesting analysis.
Tom Glavine's whip for his entire career was 1.314.

I tend not to lean too hard on whip because it's difficult to evaluate it in context, especially in a small 75 inning sample. Schilling's ERA+ that year was 92. So yeah, about 8% below average, or "slightly, in my book.
That's incredibly dumb, even for you.

You do realize that ERA for relievers (and therefore ERA+) can be very misleading, do you not?

Do you still want to stand by Schilling's '91 season as being only "slightly below average"?  He surrendered more than a hit an inning, and more than a walk every two innings.
1/6/2015 6:25 PM
bad_luck
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"You do realize that ERA for relievers (and therefore ERA+) can be very misleading, do you not?"

I do realize that, it's a small sample size and the same irregularities apply to whip. You're the one that wanted to focus on 1991.

Tom Glavine allowed 97 hits for every 100 innings pitched and 1 walk for every 3 innings pitched. You put him in the Hall of Fame. So yeah, I'm still cool with 1991 being called slightly below average.
1/6/2015 6:35 PM
MikeT23
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27% for Edgar seems awful high.    And putting Biggio in brings the HOF down just another notch.
1/6/2015 7:36 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/6/2015 7:36:00 PM (view original):
27% for Edgar seems awful high.    And putting Biggio in brings the HOF down just another notch.
Lol

I'm OK with Biggio going in with:

12602 PA, 310/377/440 with 115 OPS+, 260 HR and 72 WAR.

It's not inner circle great, but he hung around, got a lot of hits and had a great 5 or 6 year peak. His defense was questionable, though.
1/6/2015 7:47 PM
tecwrg
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WAR, ************!!!!!
1/6/2015 8:23 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 1/6/2015 6:35:00 PM (view original):
"You do realize that ERA for relievers (and therefore ERA+) can be very misleading, do you not?"

I do realize that, it's a small sample size and the same irregularities apply to whip. You're the one that wanted to focus on 1991.

Tom Glavine allowed 97 hits for every 100 innings pitched and 1 walk for every 3 innings pitched. You put him in the Hall of Fame. So yeah, I'm still cool with 1991 being called slightly below average.
Are you also cool with being called retarded regarding your knowledge of baseball?
1/6/2015 8:27 PM
bad_luck
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Well that sure is a convincing counter argument. I'll take it into consideration.
1/6/2015 8:41 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 1/6/2015 8:41:00 PM (view original):
Well that sure is a convincing counter argument. I'll take it into consideration.
Well, it's more accurate than saying a reliever with a 1.559 WHIP had a "slightly below average" season.
1/6/2015 9:25 PM
seamar_116
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/6/2015 7:36:00 PM (view original):
27% for Edgar seems awful high.    And putting Biggio in brings the HOF down just another notch.
Johnson offered his thoughts on Edgar Martinez.

“Edgar Martinez is, hands down, the best hitter that I’ve ever seen,” Johnson said. “I’m glad I didn’t have to face him too much. Having seen him play from ’89 to all the way when I left, I got to see him a lot against great pitchers. Like I said, hands down, he is the best pure hitter that I got to see on a nightly basis. And I hope that his time comes soon, that he gets a phone all stating that he’s a Hall of Fame player, because he is.”

Johnson isn’t the only one to think that way. On a television interview shortly after the announcement, Pedro Martinez said Edgar Martinez was the toughest hitter he ever faced. A few weeks ago, Mariano Rivera said the same thing about Edgar.

But what the hell do they know? I've got to go with the insight of MikeT...he knows the game better than Randy, Mariano, and Pedro.

1/6/2015 9:59 PM
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