Posted by MikeT23 on 6/16/2016 8:08:00 AM (view original):
So BL is finally admitting he's a fan of FIP? What was his alias that loved FIP?

jrd_x

Posted by tecwrg on 6/16/2016 6:11:00 AM (view original):
Why does it matter how a pitcher gets outs, but it doesn't matter how a hitter makes outs?

If strikeouts are a good thing for a pitcher, doesn't it follow that they would be a bad thing for a hitter?

If strikeouts make a pitcher better, then wouldn't it be in the hitter's best interests to try to cut down on strikeouts?

Do you understand baseball? (Rhetorical question: I know that you don't).

Assuming the hitter is productive, how he makes his outs doesn't matter. If he isn't productive, it's the amount of outs that are a problem. Pitchers can be good with a low K rate, but it's harder, because more balls in play mean more hits allowed.

Posted by bad_luck on 6/16/2016 10:31:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 6/16/2016 6:11:00 AM (view original):
Why does it matter how a pitcher gets outs, but it doesn't matter how a hitter makes outs?

If strikeouts are a good thing for a pitcher, doesn't it follow that they would be a bad thing for a hitter?

If strikeouts make a pitcher better, then wouldn't it be in the hitter's best interests to try to cut down on strikeouts?

Do you understand baseball? (Rhetorical question: I know that you don't).

Assuming the hitter is productive, how he makes his outs doesn't matter. If he isn't productive, it's the amount of outs that are a problem. Pitchers can be good with a low K rate, but it's harder, because more balls in play mean more hits allowed.

All outs are decidedly NOT equal. A fly ball out to deep right field with a runner on third is better than a strikeout. Not sure how you can make that " how he makes his outs doesn't matter" comment....

I can't believe we have to do this again.

If the type of out mattered, teams that strikeout less would score more runs. They don't.

FALSE!! TEAMS THAT DON"T STRIKE OUT MUCH ARE NOT AGGRESSIVE ENOUGH AT THE PLATE TO GENERATE THE POWER NEEDED TO SCORE RUNS LIKE THE EIGHTYSIXMETS!!! YOU ARE ASSUMING ALL THINGS EQUAL AND THEY ARE NOT.

Posted by bad_luck on 6/16/2016 11:28:00 AM (view original):
I can't believe we have to do this again.

If the type of out mattered, teams that strikeout less would score more runs. They don't.

that's one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard. Like raliens(cresten?) said, a deep fly ball out with a runner on 3rd base (and less than 2 outs) is much better than a strikeout. A ground out to the right side that advances a runner from 2nd to 3rd is better than a strikeout. All outs are not equal.

Posted by wylie715 on 6/16/2016 12:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 6/16/2016 11:28:00 AM (view original):
I can't believe we have to do this again.

If the type of out mattered, teams that strikeout less would score more runs. They don't.

that's one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard. Like raliens(cresten?) said, a deep fly ball out with a runner on 3rd base (and less than 2 outs) is much better than a strikeout. A ground out to the right side that advances a runner from 2nd to 3rd is better than a strikeout. All outs are not equal.

Not necessarily agreeing with BL, but there are situations you can argue the other way. Runner on first, less than two outs, a K is better than a ground ball double play.

I think in hindsight it doesn't matter how a guy made his outs. Obviously, in specific situations, you want a guy who puts the ball in play over a guy who Ks. But retroactively, if a guy hits .300/.353/.499 with 30 homers and 110 RBI, when you're evaluating the strength of his season, it really doesn't matter if he had 300 flyouts, 100 groundouts and 100 Ks, or 200 flyouts, 100 groundouts and 200 Ks.

Only somebody who doesn't understand baseball, or is a complete moron, would argue that "all outs are equal".

SURPRISE!!!

It's BL who's arguing that!

AGAIN!!!

Posted by Jtpsops on 6/16/2016 12:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 6/16/2016 12:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 6/16/2016 11:28:00 AM (view original):
I can't believe we have to do this again.

If the type of out mattered, teams that strikeout less would score more runs. They don't.

that's one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard. Like raliens(cresten?) said, a deep fly ball out with a runner on 3rd base (and less than 2 outs) is much better than a strikeout. A ground out to the right side that advances a runner from 2nd to 3rd is better than a strikeout. All outs are not equal.

Not necessarily agreeing with BL, but there are situations you can argue the other way. Runner on first, less than two outs, a K is better than a ground ball double play.

I think in hindsight it doesn't matter how a guy made his outs. Obviously, in specific situations, you want a guy who puts the ball in play over a guy who Ks. But retroactively, if a guy hits .300/.353/.499 with 30 homers and 110 RBI, when you're evaluating the strength of his season, it really doesn't matter if he had 300 flyouts, 100 groundouts and 100 Ks, or 200 flyouts, 100 groundouts and 200 Ks.

This. How you made your outs doesn't matter. How often you made them does.

Posted by bad_luck on 6/16/2016 12:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 6/16/2016 12:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 6/16/2016 12:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 6/16/2016 11:28:00 AM (view original):
I can't believe we have to do this again.

If the type of out mattered, teams that strikeout less would score more runs. They don't.

that's one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard. Like raliens(cresten?) said, a deep fly ball out with a runner on 3rd base (and less than 2 outs) is much better than a strikeout. A ground out to the right side that advances a runner from 2nd to 3rd is better than a strikeout. All outs are not equal.

Not necessarily agreeing with BL, but there are situations you can argue the other way. Runner on first, less than two outs, a K is better than a ground ball double play.

I think in hindsight it doesn't matter how a guy made his outs. Obviously, in specific situations, you want a guy who puts the ball in play over a guy who Ks. But retroactively, if a guy hits .300/.353/.499 with 30 homers and 110 RBI, when you're evaluating the strength of his season, it really doesn't matter if he had 300 flyouts, 100 groundouts and 100 Ks, or 200 flyouts, 100 groundouts and 200 Ks.

This. How you made your outs doesn't matter. How often you made them does.

I'm strictly talking about evaluating after the fact though.

In a live game situation, I want a guy who puts the ball in play. It's only after the fact, when assessing a player's season, that I don't really think it matters how his outs were made. I don't think anyone would refuse to vote someone for MVP just because too great a percentage of his outs were by K.

Of course. No one is saying ball in play = strikeout. Just outs.

Posted by bad_luck on 6/16/2016 1:05:00 PM (view original):
Of course. No one is saying ball in play = strikeout. Just outs.

Well if that's your stance, you may want to clarify. Because it sounds like you're saying in any situation, a K = a groundout = a flyball. And that's not always true.

A ball in play isn't necessarily an out. Once it becomes an out, it was no better than a strikeout.

For ****'s sake. This has been done time and time again.

By and large, the type of out is irrelevant. For every advanced runner or sacrifice fly to score a run, there is a double play grounder.

The difference is you cannot do anything positive with a whiff. Teams don't make errors on whiffs and runners don't advance.

That's why it's different for a pitcher to get a strikeout. He's removed the possibility of advancing runners/making errors. A win for the pitcher.
A hitter striking out has removed the possibility of contributing or, in the case of a double play, doing more damage. A wash for the hitter.

My argument has always been a ball in play is better than a strikeout. Because the idea of hitting is to do something positive not avoid doing something negative. A batter can't go to the plate thinking "****, I can't hit the ball because it might be a double play." He's thinking "The big *** brunette in Section C, Seat 2 is gonna blow me after I knock in the game winner!!!"

Posted by bad_luck on 6/16/2016 1:10:00 PM (view original):
A ball in play isn't necessarily an out. Once it becomes an out, it was no better than a strikeout.

Utterly retarded.

You have a fundamental lack of understanding about baseball.