Posted by bad_luck on 8/28/2013 12:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by lad_buck on 8/28/2013 12:05:00 PM (view original):
Your arguments prior were not aligned to merely establish a simply "GREAT" year, in 1985.

OK. I'm asking you if you think Henderson ha a great year in 1985.

again. this question could be loaded. so i will re-state the obvious. u claim that your measuring stick isn't some knock-off of something cheap from taiwan. u claim that u have the one and only genuine american-made measuring stick that must be the universal standard. my tape measure happens to be accurate in what it measures which means i can rely on it. i do not use mvp seasons to re-write history. my measure only compares mvp votes from both leagues in 85. Double M's is all i see, then simple numbers that simply tell me what hall voters also see as simple. your game is insufficient. mine is not.

It's not loaded. It's a simple yes or no question. Did Henderson have a great year in 1985?

Posted by bad_luck on 8/28/2013 1:43:00 PM (view original):
It's not loaded. It's a simple yes or no question. Did Henderson have a great year in 1985?

Did Henderson have a great year in 1985?  Yes
Did Mattingly have a great year in 1985?  Yes
Did Brett have a great year in 1985?  Yes

Seems to me the discussion is about who DESERVED the MVP that year, not really if any of the 3 guys had great seasons.  I am a Yankee fan so (being a homer) i'd vote for Mattingly or Henderson all day.  If I had no idea who each guy played for and was only shown their stats, I'd lean towards Brett 1, Henderson 2, and Mattingly 3.

Posted by winner77 on 8/28/2013 1:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/28/2013 1:43:00 PM (view original):
It's not loaded. It's a simple yes or no question. Did Henderson have a great year in 1985?

Did Henderson have a great year in 1985?  Yes
Did Mattingly have a great year in 1985?  Yes
Did Brett have a great year in 1985?  Yes

Seems to me the discussion is about who DESERVED the MVP that year, not really if any of the 3 guys had great seasons.  I am a Yankee fan so (being a homer) i'd vote for Mattingly or Henderson all day.  If I had no idea who each guy played for and was only shown their stats, I'd lean towards Brett 1, Henderson 2, and Mattingly 3.

Would you say that the difference between Henderson and Mattingly "wasn't even close"?

Posted by tecwrg on 8/28/2013 1:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by winner77 on 8/28/2013 1:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/28/2013 1:43:00 PM (view original):
It's not loaded. It's a simple yes or no question. Did Henderson have a great year in 1985?

Did Henderson have a great year in 1985?  Yes
Did Mattingly have a great year in 1985?  Yes
Did Brett have a great year in 1985?  Yes

Seems to me the discussion is about who DESERVED the MVP that year, not really if any of the 3 guys had great seasons.  I am a Yankee fan so (being a homer) i'd vote for Mattingly or Henderson all day.  If I had no idea who each guy played for and was only shown their stats, I'd lean towards Brett 1, Henderson 2, and Mattingly 3.

Would you say that the difference between Henderson and Mattingly "wasn't even close"?

No, I would not say that.  I just don't know if it's a big deal to say that....some guys favor Center Fielder defense and 80 steals over 35 bombs and .350+ batting average. 

I think the margin between all 3 guys is very tight, not just the difference between Mattingly and Henderson.

Posted by tecwrg on 8/28/2013 1:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by winner77 on 8/28/2013 1:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/28/2013 1:43:00 PM (view original):
It's not loaded. It's a simple yes or no question. Did Henderson have a great year in 1985?

Did Henderson have a great year in 1985?  Yes
Did Mattingly have a great year in 1985?  Yes
Did Brett have a great year in 1985?  Yes

Seems to me the discussion is about who DESERVED the MVP that year, not really if any of the 3 guys had great seasons.  I am a Yankee fan so (being a homer) i'd vote for Mattingly or Henderson all day.  If I had no idea who each guy played for and was only shown their stats, I'd lean towards Brett 1, Henderson 2, and Mattingly 3.

Would you say that the difference between Henderson and Mattingly "wasn't even close"?

You get soooo hung up on little things like that.

Is it ridiculous for me to think the difference wasn't close? Not taking anything away from Mattingly's season, but Henderson was significantly more valuable.

A CF plays above average defense, gets on base 42% of the time, hits for power, and steals 80 bases.
A 1B plays average defense (according to BP's stat, FRAA), get's on base 37% of the time and hits for a little more power.

That is an easily seen, wide value gap, in my opinion.

But Henderson did not play above average defense.  Why can you not comprehend that?

Mattingly was a well-above average first baseman.  Why can you not comprehend that?

Posted by tecwrg on 8/28/2013 2:09:00 PM (view original):
But Henderson did not play above average defense.  Why can you not comprehend that?

Mattingly was a well-above average first baseman.  Why can you not comprehend that?

Using total zone stats (that you brought up, not me), Henderson was above average and Mattingly was not in 1985.

FRAA, which is more reliable than pre-1989 total zone, says the same thing.

Even if we say that Henderson only played average defense in 1985 and Mattingly played above average defense that year, the gap is only narrowed slightly. As Mike already said, Henderson brought more value with the glove than Mattingly did in 1985.

For crying out loud, use some critical thinking skills.  That is, if you're even capable of it.

Your beloved FRAA stat makes "adjustments made based on plays made, the expected numbers of plays per position", etc.

As has been pointed out, the 1985 Yankees had an extreme fly ball pitching staff in relation to the rest of the league.

This means that Henderson, in CF, would have more fly balls hit to him than would an average CF, thus artificially inflating his opportunities in the field.  This would artifically distort and inflate his FRAA.

Likewise, Mattingly at 1B would be handling fewer ground balls than league average for 1B would expect, thus artifically deflating his opportunities in the field.  As with Henderson, this would artifically distort and deflate his FRAA.

Get your head out of your *** and try to understand how to apply your beloved stats correctly. 

YOU NEED TO PUT THEM IN CONTEXT!!!

Posted by winner77 on 8/28/2013 1:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/28/2013 1:43:00 PM (view original):
It's not loaded. It's a simple yes or no question. Did Henderson have a great year in 1985?

Did Henderson have a great year in 1985?  Yes
Did Mattingly have a great year in 1985?  Yes
Did Brett have a great year in 1985?  Yes

Seems to me the discussion is about who DESERVED the MVP that year, not really if any of the 3 guys had great seasons.  I am a Yankee fan so (being a homer) i'd vote for Mattingly or Henderson all day.  If I had no idea who each guy played for and was only shown their stats, I'd lean towards Brett 1, Henderson 2, and Mattingly 3.

interesting. but still loaded. double m's is what i typed. let me re-spell that for the kindergarten baseball student. mattingly, mcgee. both 85 mvps. am not measuring a great season, since the word great in society can also be associated with tacos. so let me also take a laser-pointer and highlight the obvious argument here.

(hit enter key)

4 batters at issue. yanks mattingly and henderson. cards mcgee and clark. whos the slugger and whos the speedster. yet one of each takes home the mvp. my next measure ends this argument. switch hitters rule. southpaws get the red ribbon and pay-out in the win-place-show bets. righties are in the caboose. this baseball train just rolls down 140 years of track. no matter what scenery u see on that journey, somwhere u missed the predominance of right-handed pitching.

(hit enter key)

for the bright boy who might someday graduate to love baseball, u now have my answer, and it has nothing to do with great. am blind to great unless it refers to a toaster or a set of tires. mcgee and clark is 2 lefties against righties, all summer long. if rickey could hit curve balls from righties, a career weakness, it would still not be a great mattress for me to sleep on and dream great dreams upon.

(hit enter key)

to further justify what someone like mike brito would see, is rickeys exaggerated stance. not just a wickedly pretzel like crouch, but his back was facing a pitcher, and his butt hung out of the front of the batters box. he looked over his shoulder and back to see the pitchers and the ball. creating such a minimal strike zone is how he drew those impressive walk totals. the other last observation is the sledge-hammer here. rickey batted leadoff. mcgee batted third. the double m's hit in the clean-up sweet spot of run production. rickey didn't face niedenfuer and that rightie would make rickey look as stupid as bad_luck. please graduate soon.

Posted by tecwrg on 8/28/2013 2:19:00 PM (view original):
For crying out loud, use some critical thinking skills.  That is, if you're even capable of it.

Your beloved FRAA stat makes "adjustments made based on plays made, the expected numbers of plays per position", etc.

As has been pointed out, the 1985 Yankees had an extreme fly ball pitching staff in relation to the rest of the league.

This means that Henderson, in CF, would have more fly balls hit to him than would an average CF, thus artificially inflating his opportunities in the field.  This would artifically distort and inflate his FRAA.

Likewise, Mattingly at 1B would be handling fewer ground balls than league average for 1B would expect, thus artifically deflating his opportunities in the field.  As with Henderson, this would artifically distort and deflate his FRAA.

Get your head out of your *** and try to understand how to apply your beloved stats correctly. 

YOU NEED TO PUT THEM IN CONTEXT!!!

Hey Dumbshit,

You forgot to read to read the whole thing, once again. Are you doing it on purpose, or are you really that ******* stupid?

"The pitcher's groundball tendencies, batter handedness, park, and base-out state all go into figuring out how many plays an average player at a position would make."

You can't show me any stat, of any kind, that tells me that Henderson was an above average CF.     He simply was not.

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/28/2013 2:48:00 PM (view original):
You can't show me any stat, of any kind, that tells me that Henderson was an above average CF.     He simply was not.

That's heresy to BL.

Stats don't lie.  THEY'RE INFALLIBLE!!!!

Posted by MikeT23 on 8/28/2013 2:48:00 PM (view original):
You can't show me any stat, of any kind, that tells me that Henderson was an above average CF.     He simply was not.

I can't show you or you won't believe?