Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2012 2:00:00 PM (view original):
Are you sticking to the "He played longer so he was better" argument?

There is no rational argument that Hunter was better.

Hunter gave up more homers.   He gave up a lot more homers when given some runs to work with.

Carlton pitched a long time. 

What part of this are you disputing?

Do you like BABIP or WHIP as a stat?

Hunter gave up more homers.   He gave up a lot more homers when given some runs to work with.

Carlton pitched a long time.  

What part of this are you disputing?

None of it.  Carlton was a better pitcher.  What part of this are you disputing?

Do you like BABIP or WHIP as a stat?

They tell you different things.  It's understood that, for the most part, pitchers don't have much control over what happens to a ball in play.  A BABIP significantly below .300 indicates that the pitcher had a very good defense behind him or was lucky.  Or both.  Because  the H in WHIP is tied to BABIP, it isn't a great stat.  There is too much noise from defense and luck.  FIP is better.

Over 15+ years?  You're playing the "defense and luck" card on careers that long?

Let's be serious for a minute.

FIP is based on strikeouts and homers.    I'll just call them "big plays" and say Dave Kingman hit a lot of homers while striking out a lot.  Let's not base careers on Dave Kingman, OK?

This tells me what I need to know about you and baseball knowledge:   "Or Carlton?  The guy pitched over 5000 innings and is 4th all time in strikeouts."

Yay longevity!!!!

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2012 4:31:00 PM (view original):
Over 15+ years?  You're playing the "defense and luck" card on careers that long?

Let's be serious for a minute.

Not necessarily.  It's just that pitchers have almost no control over what happens to a ball in play.  It's better to evaluate them based on things they can control.

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2012 4:33:00 PM (view original):
FIP is based on strikeouts and homers.    I'll just call them "big plays" and say Dave Kingman hit a lot of homers while striking out a lot.  Let's not base careers on Dave Kingman, OK?

Or we could just say you don't know anything about baseball.  A pitcher controls his K rate and his HR rate (and FIP is more complicated than that).  Dave Kingman played outfield and is irrelevant to Carlton and Hunter.

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2012 4:38:00 PM (view original):
This tells me what I need to know about you and baseball knowledge:   "Or Carlton?  The guy pitched over 5000 innings and is 4th all time in strikeouts."

Yay longevity!!!!

You are a ******* moron.

Posted by jrd_x on 2/19/2012 4:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2012 4:31:00 PM (view original):
Over 15+ years?  You're playing the "defense and luck" card on careers that long?

Let's be serious for a minute.

Not necessarily.  It's just that pitchers have almost no control over what happens to a ball in play.  It's better to evaluate them based on things they can control.

They're in control of HR allowed?

Are you saying that the same pitch to Mickey Rivers has the same chance of being jacked out as the one to Barry Bonds?

I think there's a little more in play than the pitcher.    If you know what I mean. 

Posted by jrd_x on 2/19/2012 4:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2012 4:38:00 PM (view original):
This tells me what I need to know about you and baseball knowledge:   "Or Carlton?  The guy pitched over 5000 innings and is 4th all time in strikeouts."

Yay longevity!!!!

You are a ******* moron.

BUT HE PITCHED OVER 5000 INNINGS!!!!

Dumbass.

Posted by jrd_x on 2/19/2012 4:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2012 4:33:00 PM (view original):
FIP is based on strikeouts and homers.    I'll just call them "big plays" and say Dave Kingman hit a lot of homers while striking out a lot.  Let's not base careers on Dave Kingman, OK?

Or we could just say you don't know anything about baseball.  A pitcher controls his K rate and his HR rate (and FIP is more complicated than that).  Dave Kingman played outfield and is irrelevant to Carlton and Hunter.

They're in control of HR allowed?

Are you saying that the same pitch to Mickey Rivers has the same chance of being jacked out as the one to Dave Kingman?

I think there's a little more in play than the pitcher.    If you know what I mean. 

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2012 4:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jrd_x on 2/19/2012 4:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/19/2012 4:31:00 PM (view original):
Over 15+ years?  You're playing the "defense and luck" card on careers that long?

Let's be serious for a minute.

Not necessarily.  It's just that pitchers have almost no control over what happens to a ball in play.  It's better to evaluate them based on things they can control.

They're in control of HR allowed?

Are you saying that the same pitch to Mickey Rivers has the same chance of being jacked out as the one to Barry Bonds?

I think there's a little more in play than the pitcher.    If you know what I mean. 

Are you being dense on purpose?  A pitcher throws a pitch.  If he's a good pitcher, the ball is less likely to leave the park.  If he's a bad pitcher, it's more likely to leave the park.