OK, here you go:

tec said Trout had a historical season based on WAR.   Well, if WAR changes because of R, maybe it's not so historical after all.
With tec's post about Jones/Trout defense, it looks like dWAR is complete crap. 

So where is WAR now?   Meaningful?  Meaningful in some cases?  Complete and utter crap?    If you don't know how it works, you're not qualified to make that call.  So far, BL has used WAR as his stat of choice and has now admitted he doesn't really understand it.   So, argument invalid.

Posted by loudawg10 on 10/3/2012 4:58:00 PM (view original):
FUN WITH WAR!!

Per B-R (for position players only):
Cabrera's WAR (O+D) is 6.9.  His team total WAR is 14.5.  Meaning Cabrera's WAR is 47.6% of his team's total level.
Trout's WAR (O+D) is 10.7.  His team total WAR is 38.2.  Trout's WAR is 28% of his team's total.

Who is more valuable to their team?

Trout had better teammates. Makes sense since the Angels won more games and were a better team. Should Trout be punished for this fact?

Posted by bad_luck on 10/1/2012 7:45:00 PM (view original):
Even if you don't like WAR, it's pretty simple to see that Trout has been the best player in the AL this year. He's almost as valuable as Cabrera with the bat and destroys him in the field and on the bases.

You brought up WAR before I did. Even if you don't want to use WAR, Trout was pretty easily the most valuable player in the league.

Yep.  Especially with all those good teammates and a failure to make the playoffs.   He might have actually held them back.

Cabrera in a landslide.

Denard Span is more valuable than Josh Hamilton based on WAR.

That alone is enough to throw WAR in the trash.

Yeah, I was looking at some historical WAR and thought the same thing.    Like BL, I don't know exactly how it's calculated but some of that crap looks way off to me.

Posted by bad_luck on 10/3/2012 4:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by loudawg10 on 10/3/2012 4:58:00 PM (view original):
FUN WITH WAR!!

Per B-R (for position players only):
Cabrera's WAR (O+D) is 6.9.  His team total WAR is 14.5.  Meaning Cabrera's WAR is 47.6% of his team's total level.
Trout's WAR (O+D) is 10.7.  His team total WAR is 38.2.  Trout's WAR is 28% of his team's total.

Who is more valuable to their team?

Trout had better teammates. Makes sense since the Angels won more games and were a better team. Should Trout be punished for this fact?

I agree that Trout was the better player this year.  I'd vote for him.

But who had the most value this year?  Trout didn't help to get his team in the playoffs, while Cabrera did.  Cabrera provided more value to his team than Trout did to his.  It's difficult to argue that he didn't.  And while I look at MVP as "best player," I won't rip someone who sees the definition differently, since the BBWAA gives NO definition to what an MVP is.

Choad Figgins was #5 in 2009.    Were there only 13 BL players that season?

Posted by stinenavy on 10/3/2012 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Denard Span is more valuable than Josh Hamilton based on WAR.

That alone is enough to throw WAR in the trash.

That's not true, at least not on Fangraphs. Hamilton is a 4.7 and Span is at 4.1.

Span is extremely valuable with the glove and Hamilton is a defensive liability in CF.

And, as I post that, Hamilton drop a routine fly to give up the lead in the game that decides who wins the AL West.   Not a valuable play.

Posted by stinenavy on 10/3/2012 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Denard Span is more valuable than Josh Hamilton based on WAR.

That alone is enough to throw WAR in the trash.

I don't see that.  But Hamilton isn't very good defensively.  You can see that just by watching him.

www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx 

Edit: I see you've gotten to this already.

Posted by stinenavy on 10/3/2012 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Denard Span is more valuable than Josh Hamilton based on WAR.

That alone is enough to throw WAR in the trash.

This.

Plus, somewhere, it was posted that Verlander should be the Tigers' MVP based upon WAR.   Having watched a majority of Detroit's games, this statement most certainly discredits WAR.   Verlander had a great season, but Cabrera is clearly the Tigers MVP.    I would put Jackson and Fielder ahead of Verlander, but its close among those three.

If WAR cannot get a team MVP, it goes to show that it is one tool, but not the end all say all.  

For me, Cabrera's stats down the stretch and in the final 3 innings make him the MVP.

Posted by burnsy483 on 10/3/2012 5:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 10/3/2012 4:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by loudawg10 on 10/3/2012 4:58:00 PM (view original):
FUN WITH WAR!!

Per B-R (for position players only):
Cabrera's WAR (O+D) is 6.9.  His team total WAR is 14.5.  Meaning Cabrera's WAR is 47.6% of his team's total level.
Trout's WAR (O+D) is 10.7.  His team total WAR is 38.2.  Trout's WAR is 28% of his team's total.

Who is more valuable to their team?

Trout had better teammates. Makes sense since the Angels won more games and were a better team. Should Trout be punished for this fact?

I agree that Trout was the better player this year.  I'd vote for him.

But who had the most value this year?  Trout didn't help to get his team in the playoffs, while Cabrera did.  Cabrera provided more value to his team than Trout did to his.  It's difficult to argue that he didn't.  And while I look at MVP as "best player," I won't rip someone who sees the definition differently, since the BBWAA gives NO definition to what an MVP is.

"Trout didn't help to get his team in the playoffs, while Cabrera did.  Cabrera provided more value to his team than Trout did to his.  It's difficult to argue that he didn't. "

It's not that difficult.  Some of us have been doing it for 18 pages.  You should go back and read.

ESPN and baseball reference both show Span at 4.9 and Hamilton at 3.5. Fangraphs seems as reliable as WAR.

ESPN uses BR's WAR calculation. Fangraphs has their own. I like Fangraphs better because post 2002 UZR is more accurate for defense than Total Zone.