Ripping off ESPN -> Trout vs Cabrera MVP Topic

MikeT23
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Can Selig steal bases and play D?   Because that's almost as important as WAR.
10/4/2012 2:44 PM
burnsy483
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Mike, if Cabrera's team didn't make the playoffs, do you think he's the MVP? Just curious.
10/4/2012 2:46 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 2:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by trsnoke on 10/4/2012 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by trsnoke on 10/4/2012 1:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 1:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by trsnoke on 10/4/2012 1:37:00 PM (view original):
Tampa Bay had a better record, too.  Tigers are in the playoffs because of the division they play in.  Congrats to them, but I don't see why that would be an argument for Cabrera over Trout or anyone else.  I think Cabrera is the first triple crown winner to not lead his league in WAR, which is interesting.
Perhaps WAR is flawed?

Perhaps there are ways to add value besides just Batting Average, HR, and RBI?

Without question.

But that doesn't address my question, does it?
I think it does, since your comment implied that if WAR and triple crown aren't aligned that WAR must be flawed.  I'd take Trout in this argument but I expect Miggy will get the award.  It doesn't bother me since he is clearly one of the very best players in the game.  I do think that the "his team made the playoffs" argument is ridiculous when there are three divisions, though.  Tigers had 7th best record in league.  In/out of playoffs is a function of Tigers bein in the "right" division and the Angels and Rays being in the "wrong" divisions.  No one should get extra credit or demerits for that.
Still doesn't address the question.

I'll rephrase:   Maybe WAR is flawed?   Is it the only stat that matters?   Do teams with the best WAR always win?  Isn't the objective to win?

You are correct.  The objective is to win.

Trout's team won one more game that Cabrera's team.

Hasn't that been mentioned already?

10/4/2012 2:48 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 10/4/2012 2:46:00 PM (view original):
Mike, if Cabrera's team didn't make the playoffs, do you think he's the MVP? Just curious.
That's tricky.   Does Detroit fall just short like the Angels?

For me, baseball is about playing meaningful games in September.   Had the Angels finished 71-91 and out of it in mid-August, I'm not sure Trout's season is even recognized anywhere but Anaheim.

That said, I'm a bit of a "traditional" stat guy.   Do I value the 14 more homers more than the 45 extra SB?  Yeah.   Do I value the D in CF over the Ugh! at 3B?  Yeah.  OBP is pretty much the same.  Cabrera has the edge in AVG/SLG.   I don't care a whole lot about adjusting for park effects as you only get to play where the game is slated.   As I said, it's a debate worth having in my book.   All in all, I think Cabrera was more valuable than Trout.   In part because he was there all year.  It's a debate worth having and the only reason I've stuck around this long is because BL said "Head and shoulders".   I think that's just ******* ridiculous.
10/4/2012 2:55 PM
burnsy483
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Would you rather be on the Angels or Tigers right now? Did the Angels do as good a job accomplishing their goals as the Tigers?
10/4/2012 2:55 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by tecwrg on 10/4/2012 2:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 2:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by trsnoke on 10/4/2012 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by trsnoke on 10/4/2012 1:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 1:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by trsnoke on 10/4/2012 1:37:00 PM (view original):
Tampa Bay had a better record, too.  Tigers are in the playoffs because of the division they play in.  Congrats to them, but I don't see why that would be an argument for Cabrera over Trout or anyone else.  I think Cabrera is the first triple crown winner to not lead his league in WAR, which is interesting.
Perhaps WAR is flawed?

Perhaps there are ways to add value besides just Batting Average, HR, and RBI?

Without question.

But that doesn't address my question, does it?
I think it does, since your comment implied that if WAR and triple crown aren't aligned that WAR must be flawed.  I'd take Trout in this argument but I expect Miggy will get the award.  It doesn't bother me since he is clearly one of the very best players in the game.  I do think that the "his team made the playoffs" argument is ridiculous when there are three divisions, though.  Tigers had 7th best record in league.  In/out of playoffs is a function of Tigers bein in the "right" division and the Angels and Rays being in the "wrong" divisions.  No one should get extra credit or demerits for that.
Still doesn't address the question.

I'll rephrase:   Maybe WAR is flawed?   Is it the only stat that matters?   Do teams with the best WAR always win?  Isn't the objective to win?

You are correct.  The objective is to win.

Trout's team won one more game that Cabrera's team.

Hasn't that been mentioned already?

Sucks that Trout's season is done anyway.  Maybe they should have won more?
10/4/2012 2:56 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 2:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 10/4/2012 2:46:00 PM (view original):
Mike, if Cabrera's team didn't make the playoffs, do you think he's the MVP? Just curious.
That's tricky.   Does Detroit fall just short like the Angels?

For me, baseball is about playing meaningful games in September.   Had the Angels finished 71-91 and out of it in mid-August, I'm not sure Trout's season is even recognized anywhere but Anaheim.

That said, I'm a bit of a "traditional" stat guy.   Do I value the 14 more homers more than the 45 extra SB?  Yeah.   Do I value the D in CF over the Ugh! at 3B?  Yeah.  OBP is pretty much the same.  Cabrera has the edge in AVG/SLG.   I don't care a whole lot about adjusting for park effects as you only get to play where the game is slated.   As I said, it's a debate worth having in my book.   All in all, I think Cabrera was more valuable than Trout.   In part because he was there all year.  It's a debate worth having and the only reason I've stuck around this long is because BL said "Head and shoulders".   I think that's just ******* ridiculous.
I was assuming "just short" of the playoffs, yes.  And that's fine.  In my book, without even looking at WAR, I see 2 guys who are very similar at AVG/OBP/SLG, but one steals bases and plays great defense at a position where it's so important to have great defense.  I was actually surprised how far ahead Trout took off in WAR, and I wish I could see every game he plays so I can get an idea if he truly is a beast defensively.  

Also, re: dWar - it says Granderson is absolutely terrible in CF.  He isn't.  dWar doesnt past the smell test for me, which is why I try not to put too much stock in it.  Unless it's Jeter.  He always has terrible dWar numbers.
10/4/2012 3:05 PM
MikeT23
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I was trying to get a "feel" for Trout's season and the best I could come up with Rickey.   Rickey was a great player but never a centerpiece.   He was always a great "piece".    Pujols/Trout.
10/4/2012 4:03 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 2:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 10/4/2012 2:46:00 PM (view original):
Mike, if Cabrera's team didn't make the playoffs, do you think he's the MVP? Just curious.
That's tricky.   Does Detroit fall just short like the Angels?

For me, baseball is about playing meaningful games in September.   Had the Angels finished 71-91 and out of it in mid-August, I'm not sure Trout's season is even recognized anywhere but Anaheim.

That said, I'm a bit of a "traditional" stat guy.   Do I value the 14 more homers more than the 45 extra SB?  Yeah.   Do I value the D in CF over the Ugh! at 3B?  Yeah.  OBP is pretty much the same.  Cabrera has the edge in AVG/SLG.   I don't care a whole lot about adjusting for park effects as you only get to play where the game is slated.   As I said, it's a debate worth having in my book.   All in all, I think Cabrera was more valuable than Trout.   In part because he was there all year.  It's a debate worth having and the only reason I've stuck around this long is because BL said "Head and shoulders".   I think that's just ******* ridiculous.
You can continue to say it's ridiculous, but the two players are essentially even in offensive value and one is significantly more valuable on the bases and in the field.

That's head and shoulders better in my book.
10/4/2012 4:12 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 4:03:00 PM (view original):
I was trying to get a "feel" for Trout's season and the best I could come up with Rickey.   Rickey was a great player but never a centerpiece.   He was always a great "piece".    Pujols/Trout.
Rickey...Henderson???

Rickey Henderson is arguably among the top 25 players all time.

You've fully entered the retard zone.
10/4/2012 4:13 PM
MikeT23
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How many MVPs did Rickey win?   I think he's great.  I think he's definitely top 25 of all-time.  I also think he won ONE MVP.   That's what we're talking about, right?



"Head and shoulders" shows your stupidity.   Keep repeating it.  Thanks in advance.
10/4/2012 4:17 PM
dahsdebater
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bad_luck, you may have an argument, but since you insist on being a dismissive ******* nobody's ever going to agree with you.  Period.  It also doesn't help that you're an idiot.
10/4/2012 4:21 PM
burnsy483
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Rickey was a little bit of a compiler.  But he's had a season like Trout has had once, and yes, he won the MVP that year.  If you're comparing Trout's year to the year Rickey did what Trout did, then you're kind of arguing he should be MVP.

Edit: After further review, Rickey's season was better than Trout's the year he won MVP.  So my argument fails somewhat.

10/4/2012 4:25 PM (edited)
MikeT23
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I think being an idiot hurts his argument more than being a dismissive *******.

You just can't take anyone seriously when they use "Head and shoulders" in this discussion.
10/4/2012 4:23 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by dahsdebater on 10/4/2012 4:21:00 PM (view original):
bad_luck, you may have an argument, but since you insist on being a dismissive ******* nobody's ever going to agree with you.  Period.  It also doesn't help that you're an idiot.
I actually agree with him that Trout should win the MVP.  But he's so dismissive of any other thought.

I asked him what the point of him making this thread was.  He still hasn't answered. 
10/4/2012 4:23 PM
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Ripping off ESPN -> Trout vs Cabrera MVP Topic
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