Ripping off ESPN -> Trout vs Cabrera MVP Topic

tecwrg
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I look at MVP as "who was most responsible for the success of his team", with success being wins/losses.

To me there's no difference if it's an 88 team that makes the playoffs or an 89 win team that misses the playoffs.  You shouldn't reward or penalize players due to an anomaly of divisional alignment.
10/5/2012 9:55 AM
MikeT23
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But it's OK to penalize a great player on a ****** team because they can't win?

WTF?
10/5/2012 11:03 AM
tecwrg
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How successful are ****** teams?
10/5/2012 11:08 AM
tigers'84
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Actual definition of MVP from BBWAA site:

There seems to always be a debate about the definition of the MVP. What does the ballot say?

Dear Voter:

There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.

The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931:

1.  Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.

2.  Number of games played.

3.  General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.

4.  Former winners are eligible.

5.  Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.

You are also urged to give serious consideration to all your selections, from 1 to 10. A 10th-place vote can influence the outcome of an election. You must fill in all 10 places on your ballot. Only regular-season performances are to be taken into consideration.

Keep in mind that all players are eligible for MVP, including pitchers and designated hitters.


10/5/2012 11:10 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by burnsy483 on 10/5/2012 9:21:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/5/2012 8:50:00 AM (view original):
At the end of the day, and this is what the WAR guys don't get, it's what you consider "valuable".    People have tried several analogies to make them understand "value" but it hasn't sunk in.    Value cannot be quantified with one little formula/stat. 

The point being made about MC moving to 3B, where you know he wasn't comfortable, to make room for Fielder is completely overlooked.   He could have thrown a Hanley-fit and forced his way out of town.   Or Detroit could have relented, left Brandon Inge on 3B while working Fielder/Cabrera at 1B/DH and forced Delmon Young back into the OF picture.  The fact that he's penalized by WAR for being a below average 3B is ridiculous.   He made the team better by doing it.

If he stayed at 1B, WAR would penalize him further.  Being a poor 3B is better than being a below average-to-average 1B, according to WAR.  

Edit: I think.  Maybe I shouldn't have said that, I don't know if that's always true.  Problem with WAR...very few people know how it works very well.
I think it comes down to how Cabrera would have performed at 1b. He's a bad 3b, but a bad 3b is still more valuable than an average 1b. Considering that Cabrera was better offensively in 2010 &  2011 but had the same or lower WAR (Fangraphs), his value went up moving to 3b. Cabrera benefits in WAR by making the move. No extra credit necessary.
10/5/2012 11:50 AM
tigers'84
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I'm biased (obviously), but here are the stats for Cabrera and Trout post all-star game and for September and October:

Post All-Star G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB AVG OBP SLG OPS
Cabrera 75 279 57 94 14 0 26 68 34 48 1 0.337 0.407 0.667 1.074
Trout 75 301 72 94 12 5 18 43 42 82 23 0.312 0.401 0.565 0.966
                               
Sept-Oct G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB AVG OBP SLG OPS
Cabrera 31 114 23 38 6 0 11 30 13 25 0 0.333 0.402 0.675 1.077
Trout 30 114 23 33 5 2 5 9 20 35 7 0.289 0.396 0.500 0.896

Who would have you rather had on your team down the stretch?

That said, I would not be hugely disappointed if Trout wins the MVP because Cabrera has the Triple Crown.  The triple crown hold a special place in baseball lore.
10/5/2012 11:52 AM
Jtpsops
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"most valuable to HIS team"...not any team. Right there on the ballot
10/5/2012 12:23 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by Jtpsops on 10/5/2012 12:23:00 PM (view original):
"most valuable to HIS team"...not any team. Right there on the ballot
Semantics. Trout was still more valuable to the Angels than Cabrera was to the Tigers because Trout was better this year. Had Cabrera produced as much as Trout, the Tigers would have won more games.
10/5/2012 12:36 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by tecwrg on 10/5/2012 11:08:00 AM (view original):
How successful are ****** teams?
How successful are teams that don't make the playoffs?
10/5/2012 12:40 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 10/5/2012 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 10/5/2012 11:08:00 AM (view original):
How successful are ****** teams?
How successful are teams that don't make the playoffs?
If you're still talking about the Angels, more successful than the Tigers.
10/5/2012 12:41 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by bad_luck on 10/5/2012 12:36:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Jtpsops on 10/5/2012 12:23:00 PM (view original):
"most valuable to HIS team"...not any team. Right there on the ballot
Semantics. Trout was still more valuable to the Angels than Cabrera was to the Tigers because Trout was better this year. Had Cabrera produced as much as Trout, the Tigers would have won more games.
While it was fairly evident about 29 pages ago, I think this post confirms it to anyone who hasn't caught on yet:

10/5/2012 12:43 PM
colonels19
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1 win is a wash, so the Cabrera's team made the playoffs argument is moot...it was a weaker division according to W-L...Cabrera's stats are better, WAR is straw grabbing for Trout, because since when is a positional adjustment necessary for determining MVP?
10/5/2012 1:04 PM
rsp777
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Sortable Fielding
RK PLAYER TEAM GP GS FULL TC PO A E DP FPCT RF DWAR
1 Adrian Beltre TEX 129 129 1125 312 95 209 8 23 .974 2.43 0.0
2 Mike Moustakas KC 149 147 1314 454 127 312 15 41 .967 3.01 0.0
3 Miguel Cabrera DET 154 154 1322 383 127 243 13 31 .966 2.52 0.0
4 Kevin Youkilis BOS/CHW 111 107 894 248 62 177 9 20 .964 2.41 0.0
5 Alberto Callaspo LAA 131 122 1107 324 77 235 12 19 .963 2.54 0.0
6 Kyle Seager SEA 138 137 1209 338 99 226 13 20 .962 2.42 0.0
7 Brett Lawrie TOR 123 123 1072 374 84 273 17 23 .955 3.00 0.0
10/5/2012 1:07 PM
MikeT23
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I see no UZR or OMG in that post.   Doesn't count without one of those.
10/5/2012 1:09 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by MikeT23 on 10/5/2012 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 10/5/2012 11:08:00 AM (view original):
How successful are ****** teams?
How successful are teams that don't make the playoffs?

Which team had a more successful regular season:

Team A: 95-66

or

Team B: 82-79

?

10/5/2012 1:10 PM
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Ripping off ESPN -> Trout vs Cabrera MVP Topic
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