2013 Hall of Fame Ballot Topic

antoncresten
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BIGGO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BERNIE
1/11/2013 9:29 AM
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bad_luck
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1/11/2013 12:17 PM
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mfahie
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I don't know why your criteria leaves out Biggio's early career. I don't accept that frame of the discussion.

1988 negligible
1989 Biggio - Silver Slugger catcher
1990 Biggio - solid catcher with speed
1991 Biggio - All-Star catcher (Bernie a part-time rookie)
1992 Biggio - All-Star 2B (Bernie still part-time)
1993 Biggio - even more pop (Bernie full season, league average)
1994 Biggio - AS, GG, SS 2B (Bernie above average CF)
1995 Biggio - AS, GG, SS 2B (Bernie above average CF)
1996 Bernie - adds more pop (Biggio slightly down year, still AS, GG)
1997 Biggio - first really close year, both AS & GG, comparable OPS+, slight edge for Biggio, but contestable
1998 Bernie - another big year for Biggio, but even bigger for Bernie
1999 Bernie - AS, GG (Biggio takes a step back)
2000 Bernie
2001 Bernie
2002 Bernie - three big years for Bernie, Biggio is only average
2003 Biggio - almost identical seasons, except Bernie missed a big chunk
2004 Biggio - another similar average offensive season for both, Bernie now moved to DH for part of the season
2005 Biggio - Bernie fading, Biggio still solid and back at 2B
2006 Biggio - still has power, but both are mediocre at this point
2007 neither - Bernie done, Biggio a liability


There are some arguable years, but I've got 12-6 in favor of Biggio.
1/11/2013 3:45 PM
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bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/11/2013 2:28:00 PM (view original):
Which eight years, between 1993 and 2006, did you choose Biggio over Bernie?   If it was more than 8, feel free to include those seasons.

I don't buy defensive WAR so that can be thrown out.   Or, more appropriately, I value dWAR about as much as most of us value GG. 
What mfahie said. Why ignore a large chunk of Biggio's career? 

Using WAR to compare peaks, Biggio's eight best seasons were, with the exception of one, all better than Williams', and that one was a tie.

Biggio wasn't just a compiler, at his peak, he was better than Williams.
1/11/2013 4:13 PM (edited)
mfahie
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MikeT and Bernie get equal HOF credit in 1989. But Biggio was an excellent MLB player that year, so to discount it would be unfair to him.
1/11/2013 4:42 PM
Jtpsops
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Posted by bad_luck on 1/10/2013 8:38:00 PM (view original):
No such thing. You're either a Hall of Famer or you aren't.
I didn't say I agree with it, but if you don't think some voters separate it into "HOFers" and "first ballot HOFers", you're sorely mistaken.
1/11/2013 6:19 PM
Jtpsops
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Why is it that so few people reference Biggio's versatility? How many guys in history have played the caliber of C and 2B/CF that he did? C/1B or C/LF? sure. But C/2B/CF? To me, that increases his case a lot.

1/11/2013 6:22 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by Jtpsops on 1/11/2013 6:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 1/10/2013 8:38:00 PM (view original):
No such thing. You're either a Hall of Famer or you aren't.
I didn't say I agree with it, but if you don't think some voters separate it into "HOFers" and "first ballot HOFers", you're sorely mistaken.
I know, I didn't mean to come off like that was a distinction you were responsible for. I think it's stupid for writers to separate the two. Hall of Fame membership is binary, you either are or you aren't. That the writers don't vote for obviously qualified players the first year because of some made up distinction is ridiculous.
1/11/2013 7:02 PM
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bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/11/2013 8:25:00 PM (view original):
Fact of the matter is.....Biggio isn't a HOFer.  Neither is Bernie Williams.

LCD shouldn't be the determining factor. 

Before Kingman, everyone with 400 homers made the HOF.    Now we know 400 HR is still a big deal.    Why isn't anyone screaming for Kong?
Well, it's extremely likely that Biggio will get elected next year and Williams is off the ballot, so there is a pretty big difference between the two.
1/11/2013 8:56 PM
Jtpsops
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Posted by Jtpsops on 1/11/2013 6:22:00 PM (view original):

Why is it that so few people reference Biggio's versatility? How many guys in history have played the caliber of C and 2B/CF that he did? C/1B or C/LF? sure. But C/2B/CF? To me, that increases his case a lot.

Any thoughts on the above? I think it's a valid point. Does it make Biggio a HOFer? Not in and of itself, but I think it definitely increases the value of his career.
1/11/2013 10:35 PM
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