# Wins and Losses Topic

Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 11:15:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 11:10:00 AM (view original):
Of all the information you have available to compare players, what does W/L tell you that you don't get better from somewhere else?

Not much. That ISNT THE POINT.
Ummm...that is the whole point. If W/L record doesn't tell you anything, it's useless.
Of all the information I have available to compare players, what does <insert any statistic here> tell you that you don't get better from somewhere else?

You can use this statement at any time.

Is there one stat that you consider "Essential to determining the value of players" where all the others are "COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS?"
12/7/2012 11:17 AM
No, you can't. If you want to know how many runs per 9 innings a guy allowed, ERA is pretty much it. It tells you something very specific about the pitcher's performance. Same with WHIP, K rate, HR rate, etc, etc.

W/L doesn't tell you anything about how the pitcher actually performed.
12/7/2012 11:25 AM
You're giving me "if I want to know a specific statistic, looking at the statistic is the way to find that out." Yes. If I want to know how many wins a pitcher had, I have to look at the "wins" statistic.
12/7/2012 11:50 AM
But knowing that a pitcher got the win doesn't tell you anything about his performance.
12/7/2012 11:52 AM
It tells you he probably pitched well. A good ERA also will tell you the pitcher probably pitched well.
12/7/2012 11:53 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 11:25:00 AM (view original):
No, you can't. If you want to know how many runs per 9 innings a guy allowed, ERA is pretty much it. It tells you something very specific about the pitcher's performance. Same with WHIP, K rate, HR rate, etc, etc.

W/L doesn't tell you anything about how the pitcher actually performed.
Am simply convinced by all these posts, that he refuses to grasp
the importance of a pitcher's W/L record, in accord w/ all other #'s...

Having NEVER held a baseball bat, while staring @ (RP)RFingers
handlebar moustache, guessing what's coming next... Never has
been in uniform, on a wooden bench, while all other 'team-mates'
begin verbalizing by the 3rd inning that (SP)NoRyan has his stuff
& that NO bat is gonna' touch it, on that afternoon... Or, the 1981
Fernando-Mania that involved 13 very important wins, inevitable
yes, but no way accomplished by any other pitcher, that season...

Point is, U R free 2 ignore the W/L category, all U want... Those
other managers who contribute to your loss columns,- generally
don't get lazy when seeking pitching 2 fill a roster, & review ALL
numbers relating to this game... U will not convince alot of owners
here that W/L in as meaning-less as U deem it 2 be...

Enuff typed 4 now...
12/7/2012 12:02 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 11:54:00 AM (view original):
It tells you he probably pitched well. A good ERA also will tell you the pitcher probably pitched well.
Christ.

Does a pitcher getting a win tell you he pitched well? You can guess he did. BUT WHY DO YOU WANT TO GUESS????????????????????
12/7/2012 12:04 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 12:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 11:54:00 AM (view original):
It tells you he probably pitched well. A good ERA also will tell you the pitcher probably pitched well.
Christ.

Does a pitcher getting a win tell you he pitched well? You can guess he did. BUT WHY DO YOU WANT TO GUESS????????????????????
Does a pitcher getting a 1.50 ERA in a game tell you a pitcher pitched well? You can guess he did. But why do you want to guess?????????????????????
12/7/2012 12:07 PM
Posted by jsakicno19 on 12/7/2012 12:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 11:25:00 AM (view original):
No, you can't. If you want to know how many runs per 9 innings a guy allowed, ERA is pretty much it. It tells you something very specific about the pitcher's performance. Same with WHIP, K rate, HR rate, etc, etc.

W/L doesn't tell you anything about how the pitcher actually performed.
Am simply convinced by all these posts, that he refuses to grasp
the importance of a pitcher's W/L record, in accord w/ all other #'s...

Having NEVER held a baseball bat, while staring @ (RP)RFingers
handlebar moustache, guessing what's coming next... Never has
been in uniform, on a wooden bench, while all other 'team-mates'
begin verbalizing by the 3rd inning that (SP)NoRyan has his stuff
& that NO bat is gonna' touch it, on that afternoon... Or, the 1981
Fernando-Mania that involved 13 very important wins, inevitable
yes, but no way accomplished by any other pitcher, that season...

Point is, U R free 2 ignore the W/L category, all U want... Those
other managers who contribute to your loss columns,- generally
don't get lazy when seeking pitching 2 fill a roster, & review ALL
numbers relating to this game... U will not convince alot of owners
here that W/L in as meaning-less as U deem it 2 be...

Enuff typed 4 now...
What language is this?
12/7/2012 12:08 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 12:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 12:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 11:54:00 AM (view original):
It tells you he probably pitched well. A good ERA also will tell you the pitcher probably pitched well.
Christ.

Does a pitcher getting a win tell you he pitched well? You can guess he did. BUT WHY DO YOU WANT TO GUESS????????????????????
Does a pitcher getting a 1.50 ERA in a game tell you a pitcher pitched well? You can guess he did. But why do you want to guess?????????????????????
A pitcher getting a win tells you that he held the other team to fewer runs than his own team scored.

Which is kind of the goal of baseball.

Anybody with an IQ higher than 17 should know that.
12/7/2012 12:15 PM (edited)
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 12:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 12:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 11:54:00 AM (view original):
It tells you he probably pitched well. A good ERA also will tell you the pitcher probably pitched well.
Christ.

Does a pitcher getting a win tell you he pitched well? You can guess he did. BUT WHY DO YOU WANT TO GUESS????????????????????
Does a pitcher getting a 1.50 ERA in a game tell you a pitcher pitched well? You can guess he did. But why do you want to guess?????????????????????
As we've said over and over again, one stat in a vacuum doesn't really tell you anything. You need context. With context ERA tells you something important. With context, W/L record tells you nothing.
12/7/2012 12:16 PM (edited)
Posted by tecwrg on 12/7/2012 12:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 12:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 12:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 11:54:00 AM (view original):
It tells you he probably pitched well. A good ERA also will tell you the pitcher probably pitched well.
Christ.

Does a pitcher getting a win tell you he pitched well? You can guess he did. BUT WHY DO YOU WANT TO GUESS????????????????????
Does a pitcher getting a 1.50 ERA in a game tell you a pitcher pitched well? You can guess he did. But why do you want to guess?????????????????????
A pitcher getting a win tells you that he held the other team to fewer runs than his own team scored.

Which is kind of the goal of baseball.

Anybody with an IQ higher than 17 should know that.
The goal of the team is to win. In evaluating which pitchers help their teams win the most, you need to separate the individual pitcher's performance from the offense and the performance of the bullpen.

Anybody with an IQ higher than 17 should know that.

Unless they are arguing in bad faith.
12/7/2012 12:18 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 12:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 12:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 12:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 11:54:00 AM (view original):
It tells you he probably pitched well. A good ERA also will tell you the pitcher probably pitched well.
Christ.

Does a pitcher getting a win tell you he pitched well? You can guess he did. BUT WHY DO YOU WANT TO GUESS????????????????????
Does a pitcher getting a 1.50 ERA in a game tell you a pitcher pitched well? You can guess he did. But why do you want to guess?????????????????????
As we've said over and over again, one stat in a vacuum doesn't really tell you anything. You need context. With context ERA tells you something important. With context, W/L record tells you nothing.
With context, what does ERA tell you?
12/7/2012 12:40 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/6/2012 6:13:00 PM (view original):
Pitcher A and Pitcher B are the same pitcher.  Do you see that?  They have the same stuff.  In one scenario, the pitcher is pitching in a smarter way, and it results in more wins.  There are many factors that goes into W-L record, so obviously I'm not going to assume that anyone who wins 20 games is better in high leverage situations.  But someone who does pitch better in those situations will win more games, possibly without a noticeable difference in other statistics.

Remember Tebowmania last year? Kyle Orton started the season and the team was bad.  Everybody played poorly, including the defense.  Tebow took over, and even though he was not a good QB, the team won games.  The running game was better, the defense was better...there was something about Tebow playing that seemed to result in more wins.  Maybe it was leadership? I don't know.  But he won games.

If a pitcher accumulates wins, maybe its because he pitches well in high leverage situations.  Maybe it isn't.  I don't think Jack Morris should be in the Hall of Fame.  I know you posted research, but I did my own research in the past.  Morris has nearly the exact same numbers regardless of the situation.  He is Pitcher A.  But, he won games at a higher rate than most would expect.  Why? Could it be that Morris has a reputation as a bulldog, a grinder, and the offense is more confident, goes to bat (literally and figuratively) for him, plays great defense behind him, is more confident with him playing? There's obviously something more - his teams weren't always so fantastic that it would justify that winning percentage when his ERA+ was so ordinary.

A pitcher goes and takes the mound with the goal to win the game.  He feels he accomplishes his goal when he wins, not when he allows 2 runs over 8 innings.  So W-L record means SOMETHING.  It's part of the story.
Nevermind the last post, I don't care.  We aren't going to agree because I believe in the above.  The ability to win games.  I'm seen thousands of baseball games, and from Pedro Martinez on one end of the spectrum, to Mike Pelfrey on the other, there is a skill involved where a pitcher either pitches to the score, or motivates his teammates, or gives everyone adderall before a game to help them focus, i don't know.  But I believe that skill exists.

The limited amount of organized baseball I've played also tells me that.  There are some pitchers who spend a full minute in between pitches, sulking around the mound, and say nothing to teammates during a game, that you don't enjoy playing behind.  And, there are pitchers who have similar skill who you are excited to play for.  Which team is more likely to win?

Kinda given up on the topic.  I know I'm not convincing you of anything.  But know that 92% of people who voted here disagree with you, and are completely retarded, braindead, and have an IQ of 17.
12/7/2012 12:50 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 12:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 12:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 12:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/7/2012 12:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/7/2012 11:54:00 AM (view original):
It tells you he probably pitched well. A good ERA also will tell you the pitcher probably pitched well.
Christ.

Does a pitcher getting a win tell you he pitched well? You can guess he did. BUT WHY DO YOU WANT TO GUESS????????????????????
Does a pitcher getting a 1.50 ERA in a game tell you a pitcher pitched well? You can guess he did. But why do you want to guess?????????????????????
As we've said over and over again, one stat in a vacuum doesn't really tell you anything. You need context. With context ERA tells you something important. With context, W/L record tells you nothing.
With context, what does ERA tell you?
How many runs a pitcher allowed to score. It's not perfect, it incorporates a lot of the skill of the defense and some luck. But it does tell you something.
12/7/2012 1:07 PM
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Wins and Losses Topic