# Defensive Metrics Topic

Posted by burnsy483 on 9/4/2013 11:15:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 9/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Well, we can actually WATCH the games.
You can tell how much value an outfielder has defensively by watching games on TV?
I can tell you if he's a good or bad fielder(at least on that day).   You can't?
Right, exactly.  I know a good fielder and a bad fielder when I see one.  I can tell a good defensive play from a bad defensive play.
But can you put a NUMERIC VALUE on him?

I almost finished typing that before laughing.
9/4/2013 11:18 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 9/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Well, we can actually WATCH the games.
You can tell how much value an outfielder has defensively by watching games on TV?
I can tell you if he's a good or bad fielder(at least on that day).   You can't?
Kind of. I can tell for one play, sometimes, if there's a full replay. But that doesn't tell me how good a guy is over an entire season. Just like seeing one home run or one strikeout doesn't tell you if someone is a good hitter.
9/4/2013 11:26 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:26:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 9/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Well, we can actually WATCH the games.
You can tell how much value an outfielder has defensively by watching games on TV?
I can tell you if he's a good or bad fielder(at least on that day).   You can't?
Kind of. I can tell for one play, sometimes, if there's a full replay. But that doesn't tell me how good a guy is over an entire season. Just like seeing one home run or one strikeout doesn't tell you if someone is a good hitter.
Say you watch 10-15 games.   Can you get a better idea?

9/4/2013 11:32 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:32:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:26:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 9/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Well, we can actually WATCH the games.
You can tell how much value an outfielder has defensively by watching games on TV?
I can tell you if he's a good or bad fielder(at least on that day).   You can't?
Kind of. I can tell for one play, sometimes, if there's a full replay. But that doesn't tell me how good a guy is over an entire season. Just like seeing one home run or one strikeout doesn't tell you if someone is a good hitter.
Say you watch 10-15 games.   Can you get a better idea?

I can get a rough idea. But that rough idea is going to be much less reliable than a year of UZR.

Just like seeing 30 or 40 at bats gives you a rough idea on how good someone is offensively, but you'd never take that over a full year of BA, even if you need more than one year's worth of plate appearances (over 900) for BA to normalize.
9/4/2013 11:37 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:26:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 9/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Well, we can actually WATCH the games.
You can tell how much value an outfielder has defensively by watching games on TV?
I can tell you if he's a good or bad fielder(at least on that day).   You can't?
Kind of. I can tell for one play, sometimes, if there's a full replay. But that doesn't tell me how good a guy is over an entire season. Just like seeing one home run or one strikeout doesn't tell you if someone is a good hitter.
Yea, most of the time I don't need a replay.  If anything, the slow-motion replay makes it harder to determine how well the defender played on that particular play.

I've watched Miguel Cabrera play 3B...he's not good at it.  I've also watched Omar Quintanilla play SS...he's at worst, average at it.  When I see his UZR is -6.1, I laugh.
9/4/2013 11:38 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:37:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:32:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:26:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 9/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Well, we can actually WATCH the games.
You can tell how much value an outfielder has defensively by watching games on TV?
I can tell you if he's a good or bad fielder(at least on that day).   You can't?
Kind of. I can tell for one play, sometimes, if there's a full replay. But that doesn't tell me how good a guy is over an entire season. Just like seeing one home run or one strikeout doesn't tell you if someone is a good hitter.
Say you watch 10-15 games.   Can you get a better idea?

I can get a rough idea. But that rough idea is going to be much less reliable than a year of UZR.

Just like seeing 30 or 40 at bats gives you a rough idea on how good someone is offensively, but you'd never take that over a full year of BA, even if you need more than one year's worth of plate appearances (over 900) for BA to normalize.
"I can get a rough idea. But that rough idea is going to be much less reliable than a year of UZR."

Is it?  Because if an outfielder is playing no doubles defense against a power hitter, and he hits a ball just short of him, the UZR!!! will think he had a terrible play.  And if a ball is hit right at him, it's a great defensive play!!! etc, etc.

I'm sorry, it needs to get better.
9/4/2013 11:40 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:37:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:32:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:26:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 9/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Well, we can actually WATCH the games.
You can tell how much value an outfielder has defensively by watching games on TV?
I can tell you if he's a good or bad fielder(at least on that day).   You can't?
Kind of. I can tell for one play, sometimes, if there's a full replay. But that doesn't tell me how good a guy is over an entire season. Just like seeing one home run or one strikeout doesn't tell you if someone is a good hitter.
Say you watch 10-15 games.   Can you get a better idea?

I can get a rough idea. But that rough idea is going to be much less reliable than a year of UZR.

Just like seeing 30 or 40 at bats gives you a rough idea on how good someone is offensively, but you'd never take that over a full year of BA, even if you need more than one year's worth of plate appearances (over 900) for BA to normalize.
Is that because you NEED a NUMERIC VALUE to put on the player?   I'm going to assume "Yes" and move on to my next question.

What is more "fun" for you, in a baseball-related way of course?

1.  Pouring over a pile of stats for 3 hours
2.  Watching a game

9/4/2013 11:45 AM
Posted by jsakicno19 on 9/3/2013 4:19:00 PM (view original):

.       _ii_______________n__
.   \yf____________________|- - - - - - - -- --- -----BANG !!! !!! !!!
.    //             //Y'     //
.   //     o     //====''
. //             //
. \\_____//                  If these are numbers, refecting people, -&,
what people do, & have done in the past, then it only makes a
whole lot of common sense to treat & respect numbers, just as
as U would treat & respect people...

Seems like U got a major problem there, related to the numbers
in your numbers that just won't hold still. U use parenthesis to a
point defining the updated latest MTrout numbers, -as of August,
the August 28th revised update... No doubt the cause of all of the

Just like with people... If U want someone to hold still, then point
a gun at them, and tell them to hold still. It has a 50/50 chance it
will work, but the odds increase for your math to work better, if U
would just make your numbers hold still, to solve the problem...

Brain-up, will ya' ???... Nobody does math with constantly moving
numbers, & variances that must be updated every 24 hrs... What,
R U like seeking 2 get a pension on a career as a mathematician,
but we still hafta' wait for an update to what (?) guess a maybe (?)

Nothing like another wasted 6-month 'Merry-Go-Round' ride that
goes nowhere but in circles... R U a dizzy dramamine pill addict ?

he makes a good point. doing simple math is routinely one thing throughout life, and we do it daily and naturally. but to take on numbers, and randomly place them anywhere to structure an answer, or solution, without studying the actual equation, just begs for trouble, and wastes serious time.

it seems akin to making a nuisance of yourself, in a convenience store. u defeat your own purpose.

u gain no advantage, viewing mid-season numbers, while  the rest of the baseball world waits on tradition. it has a worthy pay-out. in the early 1930's, they did not look at how ruths numbers, after 50 games, might merit an all-star game in the mid-season.

the season closes its doors at the end of the month. the only official numbers that will count, and, that are primed to finally be evaluated, and treasured. if u just evaluated trout last monday, then what's the point in discounting every effort u made to acheive that, by re-evaluating him again on any given thursday?

think. even the reverse psychology of mike_t23 has to be making some in-roads, as far as how to operate a light-bulb. so think. get rid of the clutter.
9/4/2013 11:53 AM (edited)
funny, the gunfighter, and the odds in his favor when actually bringing a gun, to a gunfight.
9/4/2013 11:57 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 9/4/2013 11:38:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:26:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 9/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Well, we can actually WATCH the games.
You can tell how much value an outfielder has defensively by watching games on TV?
I can tell you if he's a good or bad fielder(at least on that day).   You can't?
Kind of. I can tell for one play, sometimes, if there's a full replay. But that doesn't tell me how good a guy is over an entire season. Just like seeing one home run or one strikeout doesn't tell you if someone is a good hitter.
Yea, most of the time I don't need a replay.  If anything, the slow-motion replay makes it harder to determine how well the defender played on that particular play.

I've watched Miguel Cabrera play 3B...he's not good at it.  I've also watched Omar Quintanilla play SS...he's at worst, average at it.  When I see his UZR is -6.1, I laugh.
And if you look at the total UZR for Quintanilla over his career, he's average.

UZR agrees with you.

An 80 game sample showing -6.1 is worthless. Just like an 80 game sample showing a .220 batting average is worthless.
9/4/2013 12:05 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 9/4/2013 11:40:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:37:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:32:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:26:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 9/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Well, we can actually WATCH the games.
You can tell how much value an outfielder has defensively by watching games on TV?
I can tell you if he's a good or bad fielder(at least on that day).   You can't?
Kind of. I can tell for one play, sometimes, if there's a full replay. But that doesn't tell me how good a guy is over an entire season. Just like seeing one home run or one strikeout doesn't tell you if someone is a good hitter.
Say you watch 10-15 games.   Can you get a better idea?

I can get a rough idea. But that rough idea is going to be much less reliable than a year of UZR.

Just like seeing 30 or 40 at bats gives you a rough idea on how good someone is offensively, but you'd never take that over a full year of BA, even if you need more than one year's worth of plate appearances (over 900) for BA to normalize.
"I can get a rough idea. But that rough idea is going to be much less reliable than a year of UZR."

Is it?  Because if an outfielder is playing no doubles defense against a power hitter, and he hits a ball just short of him, the UZR!!! will think he had a terrible play.  And if a ball is hit right at him, it's a great defensive play!!! etc, etc.

I'm sorry, it needs to get better.
Not correct. The data collected by BIS takes into account the positioning of the fielders and the distance they went to the ball.
9/4/2013 12:07 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:37:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:32:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:26:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 9/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Well, we can actually WATCH the games.
You can tell how much value an outfielder has defensively by watching games on TV?
I can tell you if he's a good or bad fielder(at least on that day).   You can't?
Kind of. I can tell for one play, sometimes, if there's a full replay. But that doesn't tell me how good a guy is over an entire season. Just like seeing one home run or one strikeout doesn't tell you if someone is a good hitter.
Say you watch 10-15 games.   Can you get a better idea?

I can get a rough idea. But that rough idea is going to be much less reliable than a year of UZR.

Just like seeing 30 or 40 at bats gives you a rough idea on how good someone is offensively, but you'd never take that over a full year of BA, even if you need more than one year's worth of plate appearances (over 900) for BA to normalize.
Is that because you NEED a NUMERIC VALUE to put on the player?   I'm going to assume "Yes" and move on to my next question.

What is more "fun" for you, in a baseball-related way of course?

1.  Pouring over a pile of stats for 3 hours
2.  Watching a game

9/4/2013 12:18 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 12:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 9/4/2013 11:40:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:37:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:32:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:26:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 9/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Well, we can actually WATCH the games.
You can tell how much value an outfielder has defensively by watching games on TV?
I can tell you if he's a good or bad fielder(at least on that day).   You can't?
Kind of. I can tell for one play, sometimes, if there's a full replay. But that doesn't tell me how good a guy is over an entire season. Just like seeing one home run or one strikeout doesn't tell you if someone is a good hitter.
Say you watch 10-15 games.   Can you get a better idea?

I can get a rough idea. But that rough idea is going to be much less reliable than a year of UZR.

Just like seeing 30 or 40 at bats gives you a rough idea on how good someone is offensively, but you'd never take that over a full year of BA, even if you need more than one year's worth of plate appearances (over 900) for BA to normalize.
"I can get a rough idea. But that rough idea is going to be much less reliable than a year of UZR."

Is it?  Because if an outfielder is playing no doubles defense against a power hitter, and he hits a ball just short of him, the UZR!!! will think he had a terrible play.  And if a ball is hit right at him, it's a great defensive play!!! etc, etc.

I'm sorry, it needs to get better.
Not correct. The data collected by BIS takes into account the positioning of the fielders and the distance they went to the ball.
Are you sure?  Or just saying that.  Because that's not my understanding.  You could be right.
9/4/2013 12:23 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 12:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:45:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:37:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:32:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:26:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 9/4/2013 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 9/4/2013 11:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 9/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Well, we can actually WATCH the games.
You can tell how much value an outfielder has defensively by watching games on TV?
I can tell you if he's a good or bad fielder(at least on that day).   You can't?
Kind of. I can tell for one play, sometimes, if there's a full replay. But that doesn't tell me how good a guy is over an entire season. Just like seeing one home run or one strikeout doesn't tell you if someone is a good hitter.
Say you watch 10-15 games.   Can you get a better idea?

I can get a rough idea. But that rough idea is going to be much less reliable than a year of UZR.

Just like seeing 30 or 40 at bats gives you a rough idea on how good someone is offensively, but you'd never take that over a full year of BA, even if you need more than one year's worth of plate appearances (over 900) for BA to normalize.
Is that because you NEED a NUMERIC VALUE to put on the player?   I'm going to assume "Yes" and move on to my next question.

What is more "fun" for you, in a baseball-related way of course?

1.  Pouring over a pile of stats for 3 hours
2.  Watching a game

Is that a serious question, dipshit? Of course watching games is more fun. We need stats to evaluate players. Which is what we're doing when we argue who the MVP should be or who should be in the Hall of Fame.

Should I assume you like stats more than games next time you talk about Jeter's place on the all time hit list? Or when you use batting average and RBI when arguing that Don Mattingly was the best player in baseball?
9/4/2013 12:24 PM
I'm not going to get into the specifics of the article I'm taking this from, but this was considered one of Brendan Ryan's best plays at SS over the last couple years.

9/4/2013 12:28 PM
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Defensive Metrics Topic