Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 5:04:00 PM (view original):
"However, when one walks one more time every 8 games, he has more offensive value."

Reading comprehension isn't part of your skill set, is it?

Did you read the next sentence, "not a great deal more."

That's the big hint that Mike thinks they were close offensively.

Reading (just reading) isn't part of your skill set, is it?

Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 5:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 5:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/3/2013 2:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by trsnoke on 12/3/2013 12:51:00 PM (view original):
It's better to look at by normalizing PA, I think.  Per 700 PA, Martinez has 10 more TB (more HR and more doubles) and the 20 more walks.  Williams hit into almost 30 more outs per 700 PA.

That's fair.   Do you think Williams produced 30 more outs in CF than Martinez did at DH?

Even though it wasn't directed to him, I'd like to hear BL's response to this.

So you're asking me a question about WAR?

This has nothing to do with WAR.

It's ******* basic baseball knowledge.

Who will produce more defensive outs . . . a full time center fielder, or a DH?

Take your time, if you need to.  Phone a friend.  Ask your dog.  Consult a psychic.

Then give us your answer.

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 5:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 5:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/3/2013 5:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/3/2013 2:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by trsnoke on 12/3/2013 12:51:00 PM (view original):
It's better to look at by normalizing PA, I think.  Per 700 PA, Martinez has 10 more TB (more HR and more doubles) and the 20 more walks.  Williams hit into almost 30 more outs per 700 PA.

That's fair.   Do you think Williams produced 30 more outs in CF than Martinez did at DH?

Even though it wasn't directed to him, I'd like to hear BL's response to this.

So you're asking me a question about WAR?

This has nothing to do with WAR.

It's ******* basic baseball knowledge.

Who will produce more defensive outs . . . a full time center fielder, or a DH?

Take your time, if you need to.  Phone a friend.  Ask your dog.  Consult a psychic.

Then give us your answer.

Hate to break it to you, but this is exactly what WAR is for.

The questions is, did the value that Williams provided in the field offset the massive offensive advantage that Martinez had?

The answer is no, it did not.

Massive?   Good one. 

We've agreed, using tnokes' formula, that Williams produced 30 more outs per 700 PA.     Roughly just over one more out per week is "massive"?

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/3/2013 5:58:00 PM (view original):
Massive?   Good one. 

We've agreed, using tnokes' formula, that Williams produced 30 more outs per 700 PA.     Roughly just over one more out per week is "massive"?

Who agreed?

OK, how many more outs per season did Williams produce?    It's actually more like 22 more outs per 700 PA as I didn't check tsnokes' numbers.   Tell me what you come up with.   Show your work.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/3/2013 6:19:00 PM (view original):
OK, how many more outs per season did Williams produce?    It's actually more like 22 more outs per 700 PA as I didn't check tsnokes' numbers.   Tell me what you come up with.   Show your work.

So we're only comparing OBP and completely ignoring Martinez's power advantage? No thanks.

I like OPS+. It accounts for on base ability, power, ballpark, and league (when applicable) differences. By OPS+, Martinez is massively better.

So you agree that Williams produced less than one more out per week?

Per 700 PA:
2B  35-41  EM
3B  4-1       BW
HR  22-24  EM

Massive power advantage?  Looks like 11 bases.  

Or, in baseball terms, one extra base about every 16 days.   WOWSER!!!!!

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/3/2013 6:28:00 PM (view original):
So you agree that Williams produced less than one more out per week?

I have no idea. And I don't care. Williams' OBP was .381. Martinez's was .418. 37 points of OBP over 9000 plate appearances is significant, regardless of what it prorates out to per week.

Then you add in the 38 points of slugging.

And then ball park differences.

There's is a reason Williams' OPS+ matches Rick Monday and Martinez's matches Mike Schmidt and Willie McCovey.

I'll take that as "****, this went downhill quickly."    So, to tidy it up, here's how much better Martinez was every 700 PA.

22 less outs.   Less than one per week.
11 extra bases.   An extra base every 16 days. 

Dude walked alot.    Best Designated Walker in history?

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/3/2013 6:41:00 PM (view original):
I'll take that as "****, this went downhill quickly."    So, to tidy it up, here's how much better Martinez was every 700 PA.

22 less outs.   Less than one per week.
11 extra bases.   An extra base every 16 days. 

Dude walked alot.    Best Designated Walker in history?

Why are you prorating rate stats per 700 PA???

The difference between Martinez's SLG and Williams' SLG is the same as the difference in SLG between Williams and Todd Hollandsworth.

The difference between Martinez's OBP and Williams' OBP is the same as the difference in OBP between Williams and Stan Javier.

I'm sure, if you wanted to, you could boil down the differences between Bernie Williams and Stan Javier/Todd Hollandsworth to seem like an insignificant amount too.

But it's unnessary. The rate stats tell us what we need to know. Martinez got on base 3.7% more than Williams. Williams got on base 3.7% more than Stan Javier.

Mickey Mantle's OBP was 3.7% better than JD Drew's. Or Dimaggio's. Dom Dimaggio's.

Over 9000 plate appearances, 3.7% is enough to separate a good from a great player.

Dude walked a lot.   That's the difference between the two.   Yay for a good eye.  When he actually swung the bat, the difference in power was certainly not massive.  It was insignificant.   The number of outs BW made per 700 PA was insignificantly more than EW(and that counts walks).    Designated Walker. 

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/3/2013 6:59:00 PM (view original):
Dude walked a lot.   That's the difference between the two.   Yay for a good eye.  When he actually swung the bat, the difference in power was certainly not massive.  It was insignificant.   The number of outs BW made per 700 PA was insignificantly more than EW(and that counts walks).    Designated Walker. 

Yeah, you're just being ridiculous.

In terms of OBP, the difference was 3.7%. Over 9000 plate appearances that's very significant. Huge.

The slugging difference wasn't as huge, but it still exists.

Williams was nowhere near as good as Martinez offensively.