Bernie or Edgar? Topic

burnsy483
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So the difference between a .265 hitter and a .300 hitter is also insignificant. Got it.
12/4/2013 11:14 AM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 10:05:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 9:46:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 9:40:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 5:57:00 AM (view original):
You answered a question that I didn't ask.
Did I?
Yes, you did.

Go back and reread.
Just quoted the question and answer. My post was 18 minutes after yours.
The question was originally asked at 5:00pm.  You danced around it for 227 minutes before finally giving an answer.

227 > 18.
12/4/2013 11:14 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 10:05:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 9:46:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 9:40:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 5:57:00 AM (view original):
You answered a question that I didn't ask.
Did I?
Yes, you did.

Go back and reread.
Just quoted the question and answer. My post was 18 minutes after yours.
The question was originally asked at 5:00pm.  You danced around it for 227 minutes before finally giving an answer.

227 > 18.
What was the question asked at 5? Pretty sure you asked several questions.
12/4/2013 11:15 AM
burnsy483
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You understand that when you look at 700 PAs, because one has more walks, they have less opportunity to get hits, right? You're penalizing EM for having a good eye.

Also, it's SLIGHTLY easier to knock a homer out in Yankee Stadium than it is in Seattle.
12/4/2013 11:17 AM
MikeT23
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I'm not penalizing him for anything.   I'm saying he was far more proficient at walking than Bernie.   Otherwise, their hitting stats are very similar.   If you're impressed with walking, good for you.   I like middle of the line-up hitters to, oh I don't know, hit. 

12/4/2013 11:19 AM
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tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 11:15:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 11:14:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 10:05:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 9:46:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 9:40:00 AM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 5:57:00 AM (view original):
You answered a question that I didn't ask.
Did I?
Yes, you did.

Go back and reread.
Just quoted the question and answer. My post was 18 minutes after yours.
The question was originally asked at 5:00pm.  You danced around it for 227 minutes before finally giving an answer.

227 > 18.
What was the question asked at 5? Pretty sure you asked several questions.
Seriously?

Go back and reread.
12/4/2013 11:21 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 11:14:00 AM (view original):
So the difference between a .265 hitter and a .300 hitter is also insignificant. Got it.
Are we talking about hitting or walking?
12/4/2013 11:28 AM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 11:19:00 AM (view original):

I'm not penalizing him for anything.   I'm saying he was far more proficient at walking than Bernie.   Otherwise, their hitting stats are very similar.   If you're impressed with walking, good for you.   I like middle of the line-up hitters to, oh I don't know, hit. 

When Edgar comes up to bat:
He's more likely to walk than Bernie.
When he doesn't walk, he's more likely to get a hit.
When he doesn't walk, he's more likely to get a double.
When he doesn't walk, he's more likely to hit a home run.
12/4/2013 11:30 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 11:30:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 11:19:00 AM (view original):

I'm not penalizing him for anything.   I'm saying he was far more proficient at walking than Bernie.   Otherwise, their hitting stats are very similar.   If you're impressed with walking, good for you.   I like middle of the line-up hitters to, oh I don't know, hit. 

When Edgar comes up to bat:
He's more likely to walk than Bernie.
When he doesn't walk, he's more likely to get a hit.
When he doesn't walk, he's more likely to get a double.
When he doesn't walk, he's more likely to hit a home run.
Why are you discounting his walking with "When he doesn't walk"?   He does walk.  If he doesn't walk 21 more times per 700 PA, maybe he hits into 21 DP.

The numbers are what they are.   Per 700 PA, he hits 6 more doubles and 2 more homers.  He also gets 3 less triples. 
12/4/2013 11:32 AM
burnsy483
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I like percentage numbers.  You don't.  Martinez was a much more dangerous hitter than Bernie Williams.  When you look at Bonds in 2004 do you say "****, he only had 75 extra base hits.  Lots of guys did that.  What's the big fuss about?"
12/4/2013 11:37 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 9:43:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/3/2013 7:26:00 PM (view original):
You can keep repeating that over and over again.

Good to know that you have completely committed to the idea that Williams was almost as good offensively as Martinez.

Unfortunately for you, that's not true.

Bernie Williams --- 9053 PA --- .297/.381/.477 --- 125 OPS+
Edgar Martinez   --- 8674 PA --- .312/.418/.515 --- 147 OPS+

Only you would insist that those two careers are similar.
Since mike is only interested in providing prorated numbers, here are their career numbers.

And these are the numbers. No need to prorate it down to per 700 PA.
12/4/2013 11:39 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 11:20:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 11:12:00 AM (view original):
Bernie Williams had the same OPS+ as Rick Monday.

Edgar Martinez had the same OPS+ as Mike Schmidt and Willie McCovey.
It's funny that you are now touting "OPS+, ************!!!" and then posting that Bernie Williams had the same career OPS+ as Rick Monday.  Which casts some doubt on the credibility of OPS+ as a meaningful stat.

What's wrong with that picture?

Again, this is coming from the person who thinks that (a) Kenny Lofton should be in a HOF discussion, and (b) Bert Blyleven was a "great choice" for the HOF.

WIS should ban you from the forums for a month for blatant stupidity.  People are at risk of getting dumber by reading your posts.
Oh, I forgot.

Any stat that doesn't validate tec's point of view is automatically stupid/broken/retarded.

It couldn't possibly be that tec just doesn't know what he's talking about.
12/4/2013 11:40 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 11:37:00 AM (view original):
I like percentage numbers.  You don't.  Martinez was a much more dangerous hitter than Bernie Williams.  When you look at Bonds in 2004 do you say "****, he only had 75 extra base hits.  Lots of guys did that.  What's the big fuss about?"
THIS is where we differ.   "Much more dangerous HITTER"?   No.   He was more effective at the plate because he would take a walk(probably a good thing later in his career with Griffey, A-Rod and Buhner in the line-up but not so much earlier with immortals like O'Brien, Reynolds and Alvin Davis).    But MUCH or MASSIVELY or SIGNIFICANT?  No.
12/4/2013 11:44 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 8:11:00 AM (view original):
For those who aren't interested in reading all this, here's another breakdown per 700 PA(roughly a full season):

Williams:  H 180, 35 2B, 4 3B, 22 HR, 83 BB
Martinez:   H 181, 41 2B, 1 3B, 24 HR, 104 BB

For those who've used "massive" and "significant" in relation to the offensive edge Martinez had, please feel free to point it out.     If you're having trouble, I'll help you.   It's something that happens when you don't swing the bat.

Just for reference.
More reference.
12/4/2013 11:45 AM
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