Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 12:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 12:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 11:57:00 AM (view original):
Please tell me more about how Bernie Williams and Rick Monday were comparable offensively.

Seriously, I NEED TO KNOW THIS!!!

To their eras and ballparks they were.  There were a similar amount of players who hit like Bernie did during his career and Rick Monday did during his career.

Did you see Rick Monday play in the 70's?

No. Is this your argument? "YOU DIDN'T SEE HIM PLAY!!!"

I looked up his stats.  He walked a lot.  And it wasn't appreciated in the 70s.  And here we are.  

Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 12:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 12:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 11:57:00 AM (view original):
Please tell me more about how Bernie Williams and Rick Monday were comparable offensively.

Seriously, I NEED TO KNOW THIS!!!

To their eras and ballparks they were.  There were a similar amount of players who hit like Bernie did during his career and Rick Monday did during his career.

Did you see Rick Monday play in the 70's?

If Rick Monday was considered that far above his contemporaries, shouldn't he have had more than 2 career all-star appearances?  He only received MVP votes during one season in his career.

It seems that he wasn't all that special among his contemporaries.

So there goes that argument.

Critical thinking gives OPS+ a cold, hard slap across the face.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 8:11:00 AM (view original):
For those who aren't interested in reading all this, here's another breakdown per 700 PA(roughly a full season):

Williams:  H 180, 35 2B, 4 3B, 22 HR, 83 BB
Martinez:   H 181, 41 2B, 1 3B, 24 HR, 104 BB

For those who've used "massive" and "significant" in relation to the offensive edge Martinez had, please feel free to point it out.     If you're having trouble, I'll help you.   It's something that happens when you don't swing the bat.

Just for reference.

Prorated over 1 season, two players, same position, real numbers. Both have at least 5000 PA:

Player A:  H - 166; 2B - 36; 3B - 4; HR - 13; BB 53
Player B:  H - 185; 2B - 34; 3B - 5; HR - 14; BB 70

The difference between these guys is basically 1 hit over 8.5 games and 1 walk over 9.5 games.

Pretty much the same player right?

Critical thinking makes us appreciate Rick Monday more than we originally did.  When you don't think critically, you think "DER 2 ALL STAR GAMES HE BLEW." You're doing the opposite.  Someone suggests that Rick Monday was just as valuable in the 70s as Bernie was in the 90s and your response is essentially "you're a fucktard."

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 12:21:00 PM (view original):
Critical thinking makes us appreciate Rick Monday more than we originally did.  When you don't think critically, you think "DER 2 ALL STAR GAMES HE BLEW." You're doing the opposite.  Someone suggests that Rick Monday was just as valuable in the 70s as Bernie was in the 90s and your response is essentially "you're a fucktard."

Again, any stat that doesn't confirm what tec already "knows" is a stupid stat,

For example:

The guy who finished 10th in homers in the AL in 1995 had 32 homers.
The guy who finished 10th in homers in the NL in 1975 had 22 homers.

Rick Monday's 20 or so homers each season in the 70s had a similar effect as Bernie's 25 or so homers in the 90s.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 12:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 11:08:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 8:11:00 AM (view original):
For those who aren't interested in reading all this, here's another breakdown per 700 PA(roughly a full season):

Williams:  H 180, 35 2B, 4 3B, 22 HR, 83 BB
Martinez:   H 181, 41 2B, 1 3B, 24 HR, 104 BB

For those who've used "massive" and "significant" in relation to the offensive edge Martinez had, please feel free to point it out.     If you're having trouble, I'll help you.   It's something that happens when you don't swing the bat.

Just for reference.

Prorated over 1 season, two players, same position, real numbers. Both have at least 5000 PA:

Player A:  H - 166; 2B - 36; 3B - 4; HR - 13; BB 53
Player B:  H - 185; 2B - 34; 3B - 5; HR - 14; BB 70

The difference between these guys is basically 1 hit over 8.5 games and 1 walk over 9.5 games.

Pretty much the same player right?

Mike/tec, would either of you guys say that these two were offensive equals?

Another one.

Prorated to one season, two players, real numbers, at least 5000 PA:

Player X: H 195; 2B 36; 3B 5; HR 15; BB 47
Player Y: H 200; 2B 37; 3B 7; HR 14; BB 66

The difference is 1 hit over 32 games and 1 walk over 8.5.

Equal offensive players??? 

Another one??? What? No way.

Player Q   H 180; 2b 35; 3b 2; HR 23; BB 41
Player R   H 189; 2b 40; 3b 8; HR 19; BB 66

The difference is 1 hit every 18 games and 1 walk every 6.5.

Basically the same player offensively, right?

This time I'll give you the answer. Player Q is Miguel Tejada. Player R is George Brett.
 
Tejada's line: 285/336/456 with a 108 OPS+
Brett's line:     305/369/487 with a 135 OPS+

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 12:21:00 PM (view original):
Critical thinking makes us appreciate Rick Monday more than we originally did.  When you don't think critically, you think "DER 2 ALL STAR GAMES HE BLEW." You're doing the opposite.  Someone suggests that Rick Monday was just as valuable in the 70s as Bernie was in the 90s and your response is essentially "you're a fucktard."

I believe that's correct.    Monday = Williams is fucktard area.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 1:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 12:21:00 PM (view original):
Critical thinking makes us appreciate Rick Monday more than we originally did.  When you don't think critically, you think "DER 2 ALL STAR GAMES HE BLEW." You're doing the opposite.  Someone suggests that Rick Monday was just as valuable in the 70s as Bernie was in the 90s and your response is essentially "you're a fucktard."

I believe that's correct.    Monday = Williams is fucktard area.

Why would that be fucktarded?

BL, you do recognize that EM had one more hit every season, right?     Difference being, he had 21 more walks. 

So what are your examples proving?  That a guy with 20 more hits and 20 more walks is better?

OHHHH, GOOD POINT!!!!!  

Hope you didn't spend a lot of time looking those up.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 12:33:00 PM (view original):
Another one.

Prorated to one season, two players, real numbers, at least 5000 PA:

Player X: H 195; 2B 36; 3B 5; HR 15; BB 47
Player Y: H 200; 2B 37; 3B 7; HR 14; BB 66

The difference is 1 hit over 32 games and 1 walk over 8.5.

Equal offensive players??? 

According to MIke:
5 hits a year and 19 walks...big deal.
1 hit a year and 21 walks...basically the same.

Got it.

You see why prorating careers is stupid???

We have the numbers spanning their entire careers, we should use the numbers spanning their entire careers.

Martinez was massively better than Williams offensively.

Basically the same?  No.   Is this your WAR math where 30% means basically the same?